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Unread 02-25-2004, 08:15 AM   #1
walter
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ThePassion and anti-Semitic incidents

Quote from the St. Louis Post Dispatch, "A 4-by 6 sign outside Shaare Zedek Synagogue in St. Louis was hit Tuesday night. The sign's white letters on a black background normally advertise upcoming services. Vandals opened the glass case and rearranged the letters to read, "Xrist Saves All."

The movie has not been introduce to the public and yet the effects are already being realized. My co-workers say, "the Jews are making a big deal out of nothing..., after all its not like anybody was shot."

I can't believe they feel this way. It is at times like these when all the Talmudic passages that I struggle with...now become crystal clear and meaningful. It is times like these that you understand that it is us and them. Please Yankel don't take offense. I consider myself a part of the Jewish community. I may live as a gentile but I'll die as a Jew.
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Unread 02-25-2004, 01:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
but I'll die as a Jew.
meaning?
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Unread 02-25-2004, 01:47 PM   #3
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If I continue to take sides with the Jewish community I put myself in harms way. My co-workers and friends believe I am Jewish. They don't know or understand Halacha, or what makes a person Jewish. "If, G-d forbid, I was ever assaulted the vilian would think they have attacked a "Jew." I've had a few problems in the rural area that I live in, but they amounted to only name calling. But who knows what lies around the corner. As for as they are concerned...I'm Jewish.
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Unread 02-25-2004, 05:06 PM   #4
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B"H
3, Adar, 5764

The very fact that the movie was released proves yet again, what the the Torah teaches, that "Esav hates Yackov." Put in simple English: the gentile hates the Jew. He always has, and he always will. The maker of this film (mel gibson) and his parents both deny (read "support") the holocaust -- may Hashem **** the lot of them to hell.

I laugh (in a very SAD sort of way) at those who are "shocked" and "surprised" by such anti-semetic acts. Don't they know that the church was and continues to be the world's LARGEST source of ANTI-SEMETISM? These people's ancestors KILLED ours, RECENTLY, too (e.g. in germany). But the assimilated will likely call this a "freak" event, or attribute it to "fanatics," rather than face the fact that their gentile neighbor hates them as much as these vandels, only lacks the "courage" or resources to go through with anything -- for now...

May it be Hashem's will that this Purim (but hopefully sooner), we get REDEEMED, and that our righteous king Moshiach will help us to finally ERASE THE MEMORY OF AMALEK forever.
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Unread 02-25-2004, 05:15 PM   #5
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"Among gentiles there are upright believers" (FR, Purim Seuda - 5701)

Not every descendent of Esav is Amelek.

Be aware that your self-assurance borders on cockiness and arrogance, and is not likely to win the hearts and minds of your readers.
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Unread 02-25-2004, 06:32 PM   #6
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I think that Chassidic1's reaction, in light of the Crusades, Inquisition, Blood Libels, etc. is more than justified.

Who won't like what he writes? ******ians? Gentiles? This is ChabadTalk and millions of our ancestors were butchered, maimed, orphaned, widowed, raped, tortured, baptized etc. by those who represent the Church. Righteous gentiles are few and far between. Those who are ******ians today, DESPITE the ugly history of the Church, have some explaining to do about their loyalty to such a hateful and hurtful religion
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Unread 02-25-2004, 06:35 PM   #7
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and the woman who plays Mary in the film is Jewish and the daughter of Holocaust survivors

how could she act in a film that vilifies Jews? Well, she says, it's a beautiful film and a wonderful opportunity for her ...
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Unread 02-25-2004, 11:14 PM   #8
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Jude, you just answered your question. It is acting! She took a role, blah, blah,blah. Money changes everything.
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Unread 02-26-2004, 09:20 AM   #9
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:51 AM   #10
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I think it is an important step in making the world realize the falsehood they have been taught. People are starting to realize that the great religions are false. First, they realized that Islam is a bad religion, and now they're realizing that ******ianity is a bad religion.
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:59 AM   #11
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except that thousands of people are greatly inspired by this film ...

my "take" on the passionate feelings that "Passion" is generating and its enormous popularity, is that as the world once again glorifies a false religion, the (censored) words of Rambam are on the verge of being realized, i.e. that "Yeishu the ******ian" and the "Ishmaelite" pave the way for Moshiach
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Unread 02-26-2004, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
except that thousands of people are greatly inspired by this film ...
Kapital Tzadik Beis
"Bifroach reshaim kmo eisev, vayatzitzu kol poalei aven, l'hishamdam adei ad."

("When the wicked thrive like grass, and all evildoers flourish, it is in order that they may be destroyed forever.")

See http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...&threadid=3899
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Unread 02-26-2004, 04:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrookAve
Jude, you just answered your question. It is acting! She took a role, blah, blah,blah. Money changes everything.
if anything she simply proved to mr Gibson that 30 pieces of silver still go a long way....
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:13 PM   #14
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I saw the film...

A female satan (yes that's right a female satan), with a snake no less, confronts jebus, and then reappears with her minions the Jewish children who morph into demons! Even a baby shows up later as a demon in satan's arms!

The female satan occaisionally walks among the Jewish crowds and Jewish elders, clearly giving them evil energy.

Pilate is a sincere, reluctant civil servant and his wife is a jebus sympathizer; in fact, all the attractive women in the movie are sympathetic to jebus; mary magdelene (monica belluci) is shown as the adultress that jebus saved from stoning by scratching some line and mandala in the sand!

King Herod is portrayed as a sterotypical gay in the midst of a drunken orgy who doesn't take yushkie seriously.
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:39 PM   #15
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Re: I saw the film...

Quote:
Originally posted by jjbennoach
...jebus...a jebus sympathizer...the adultress that jebus saved...
Jebus (Yevus) was the original name of Yerushalayim before the time of Dovid. From context I assume you are referring to Yushka.

Thanks for the report on the film, since you are probably the only one posting on Chabadtalk who will have actually seen it.
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Unread 02-27-2004, 01:25 AM   #16
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Who would like to watch the movie? - honestly
I would - at least in sense Da mah l't'shiv.
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Unread 02-27-2004, 07:46 AM   #17
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X-tianity is dying. This is the last attempt to revive the church. They could not be revived by the theology of it all.., their doctrines simply not able to hold water. So as usual it [the passion] plays upon the heart and emotions of its followers. There is no intellect in emotion only feelings. The movies pulls at the heart not the head. And if it pulls from the heart...it is fleeting, temporary with no real substance to prolong life.
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Unread 02-27-2004, 08:23 AM   #18
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Rabbi Immanuel Schochet says:


Issur de'oraysso! Aside of aspects of bitul Torah, deorim beteilim etc., it
is definitely a geder of avodah zara, no less than studying the new testament.
Moreover, additional aspect of lo sossuru etc., as psychologically there is
empathy for the victim, especially when tortured and suffering in an unfair
portrayal of gratuitous attack and persecution, plus antipathy to Jewish side etc.
There should be much greater concern for how Jews will be affected
religiously than for (questionable catalyst for) antisemitism. It is an absolute and
unquestionable NO-NO!
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Unread 02-28-2004, 09:42 PM   #19
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Where is this quote from?
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Unread 02-28-2004, 10:16 PM   #20
rebayzl
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Quote:
Originally posted by poshut
Where is this quote from?
I got it from a friend in Askmoses.
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Unread 02-29-2004, 12:13 AM   #21
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All right if thats what he said - I'm out.
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Unread 02-29-2004, 03:29 AM   #22
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Look in Sharei Halocho Vol 5 pg 181
AL tifnu and lo sasuru
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Unread 02-29-2004, 10:15 AM   #23
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I don't see this article on his website, so can't provide a link (someone sent me this as an e-mail):

THE PASSION

A Jewish Response to Contemporary Religion

By Simon Jacobson

Just as joy is reduced from the start of Av, likewise, joy is increased from the start of Adar. Rav Papa said: Therefore, a Jew engaged in litigation with a non-Jew, should avoid it during Av, which is a time of ill mazal for him; and should make himself available during Adar, when his mazal is powerful – Talmud Ta'anit 29a-b

The Prussians say that the Prussian Kaiser is the greatest; the French say that the French Emperor is the greatest; The Russians say the Czar is the greatest. And I Levi Yiztchak ben Sarah Sosha say Yisgadel v’Yiskadesh Shmei Rabbo – Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev before leading the prayer service

All the king's servants kneeled and bowed before Haman…But Mordechai would not kneel or bow – Esther 2:3


First I felt that we should not respond to Mel Gibson’s new film. After all, the story has been repeated countless times over the last two millennia: They accuse us Jews for killing J**** their god and we are left defending ourselves in a no-win situation. Like the fellow that tells you: “When will you to stop beating your wife?” We have no need and it would serve no purpose to argue the issue.

Indeed, throughout the centuries Jews abhorred any debates with ******ians. It was the ******ians that insisted on them. Jews were secure in their position and had nothing to prove. “Just leave us alone and don’t kill our children” was the only request the Jews had. But as long as the Jews existed and maintained their beliefs the ******ians (and later the Muslims) felt threatened. After all: Why the need for a “New” Testament when the Old one is perfectly fine?

Our role has always been to spread light and not engage in debates, fruitless or not. “Po’ola yemoma anan,” we are day-workers, our Rebbes tell us. Our job is not fight darkness but to radiate light. Frankly, I am not even interested in seeing the film; there are more important things to do. Besides, I just don’t like that one filmmaker dictates what we see and dominates the topics of our discourse.

But on further thought, everything is Divine Providence. Perhaps this entire uproar about the film is meant to focus in on certain vital truths.

I then remembered the Talmud’s intriguing statement: Just as joy is reduced from the start of Av, likewise, joy is increased from the start of Adar. Therefore, a Jew engaged in litigation with a non-Jew, should avoid it during Av, which is a time of ill mazal for him; and should make himself available during Adar, when his mazal is powerful.

Amazing! The biggest Gentile/Jew trial of all is the one Jews have been put on by ******ians accusing them of killing J****.

Isn't it ironic that as we enter the Adar month of joy, a month when Jewish mazal prevails, when Haman's plot to kill the Jews was overturned, when we are told that this is the best month to face litigation, Mel Gibson chooses to release his film reiterating the single greatest accusation of ******ians against the Jews! And the world is consumed with this controversy: Did the Jews kill J****? Are they at fault? Are they collectively guilty?

Haman, like many Anti-Semites before and after him, lost it in his irrational fury toward the Jews. He was delighted, the Talmud tells us, when the lots he threw fell out in Adar. He knew that in this month, on the 7th of Adar, Moses died. What better month to kill the Jews?! He was so excited that he forgot that Moses was also born on the 7th of Adar. Moses brought unprecedented light into this world – the light of Sinai. So before you celebrate Haman, first check out all your facts.

Gibson could not have chosen a better month than this one to put the Jews on trial.

What is the Jewish response to this “tribunal”?

Our response is that we are not on trial; the ******ians are the ones on trial. It is they that slaughtered millions of Jews, without any reciprocity from the Jews; it is they that betrayed the teachings of J****; and it is they that must figure out why they needed to demonize Jews for so many years in order to thrive as a religion.

******ians are the ones that chose to worship a Jew. And what type of Jew, an ultra-orthodox one. He probably looked like a Jew from Boro Park or Meah Shearim… It behooves them to understand what J**** the Jew taught them.

We Jews have no need to apologize to anyone. We introduced civilization to the world. All of J****’ teachings came from his pious Judaism. ******ianity and Islam (and the rest of the world) has only profound thanks to give to the Jews for their contributions. That is why I find it ludicrous that we have to engage in protests and critique of a film that continues to perpetuate (and some say: exaggerate) the gospel's obstinate need to demonize the Jews.

We stand upright, proud of the fact that 3316 years we stood at Sinai and received G-d’s blueprint for life – a universal mandate for all human beings. Even when the children of Esau and Ishmael rejected this mandate, the Jewish people embraced it outright, with the knowledge that the day would come when all the nations of the world would ultimately accept it. As the Divine words rang out from Sinai they were heard across the universe, and everyone was left trembling. It would take centuries before the tremble would begin to be absorbed into the fibers of the pagan world. But the Jews always knew that it was a process. A process that would take time, patience, hard work, and yes, much suffering.

Maimonides writes that by the mysterious ways of Divine Providence, ******ianity and Islam helped pave the way for the Messianic age by acquainting the world with the principle of Messiah, the Torah and mitzvot. As time would pass their beliefs would continue to refine and mature.

We do not need to apologize for the fact that J**** was a devout Jew [Jude: he was?] . Neither do we need to apologize for whatever was transpiring internally within our family. Our issues with J**** are strictly between us and him – no one else was around then, and ******ianity was not even born at the time and wouldn’t be for years.

******ians for many centuries fed off of anti-Semitism to survive. Constantine actually insisted that we must keep the Jews alive so that we have them as a common enemy. How convenient Jews were throughout the ages. Whenever there was need for a leader to galvanize his people he always had a perfect scapegoat.

Two millennia of persecution have also distorted the Jewish psyche. Deep-seated “us against the goyim” paranoia pervades many Jewish circles. “Let’s not get too much attention lest the “goyim” will come and get us.” History is the best justification for these fears. Overconfidence in Spain’s Golden Age, and later in Germany, all led to disaster.

But let us not begin to define our identities by an anti-Semitic history. Just as the ******ians fed off of Jew baiting, the ADL feeds off of their anti-Semitism as well, and we get caught in a vicious cycle. Witness Abe Foxman’s statements against the film. Some even argue that he played right into the marketers of the film by adding to its notoriety – the holy grail of marketing.

Is there anything more to Jewish identity than being against racism? Do we stand for anything positive or are we defined just by our being against something negative?

Purim and the month of Adar tells us that our identity is to be a “light unto nations” – to introduce light even in the darkest places.

As Haman developed his plot to annihilate all the Jews, Mordechai and Esther gathered the Jews in fast and prayer. The children played an instrumental role. Mordechai gathered them and studied with them sacred texts. They didn’t just wring their hands and say “how terrible is our predicament.” Mordechai also didn’t argue that perhaps it’s better not to stand out as a Jew. Perhaps he should bow to Haman and placate him. He did not do what some Jews later thought would be the solution to the “Jewish problem” – baptism and conversion…, G-d forbid.

Mordechai and Esther did not wring their hands and did not capitulate. They acted, and they acted as Jews. They embraced the light of Torah and they recommitted to G-d’s mandate. And this commitment, coupled with Esther’s efforts, brought about the total transformation from darkness to light

This was the posture that the Jews always took in face of persecution. Rashi, Rambam, Ramban and thousands of others all lived in terrible times. At any minute another pogrom could have broke out. At any minute they could have been expelled from their land. Yet, they never allowed their enemies to define them. While blood was spilling in the streets outside, generations of Torah scholars were writing their commentaries for eternity. Not like writers today whose dysfunctionality is expressed in their words, these greats rose above their predicament and held on to the vision of Abraham and Moses – the vision of Sinai, that despite all the darkness G-d’s message will ultimately prevail.

And in this month of Adar – when our mazal passionately shines – the world is captivated yet again by these Jews.

The true Jewish response to all this controversy always remains the same. Whenever Jews were attacked, we always felt the deep pain not just for ourselves but also for those causing us so much anguish. The pain that they are so far away from recognizing the Divine Image in which they were created and so far away from their calling. Jews always knew that the Divine plan for creation would be realized – that the day will come when all nations of the world will serve one G-d, and their primary preoccupation would be to know G-d. But how long would it take? And how much would we have to suffer in the process?

When under attack Jews would simply pull back into the shelter of their souls. They would reply on their deep faith and hold on dearly to the Divine Promise that the world will change.

This is the real story behind the film. Or the real story that should be behind the film. This is the real and ultimate passion – the passion to finally embrace Sinai…

World history has moved through many stages. Nations have worshipped many kings and leaders. Bowed to many idols. Slowly, slowly they have come to understand that it’s not humans we should be worshipping. The world is embracing Mordechai’s attitude not to bow to any man or man-made object, only to G-d alone.

Purim is the best Jewish response to Mel Gibson's Passion. On Purim we reaffirmed the commitment made at Sinai. With Mordechai leading the way, the Jews declared their refusal to bow down to anything man-made, and to serve G-d alone.

This infuriated Haman and the Persians, just as it disturbed the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians before, and just as it would agitate the Romans, ******ians, Muslims, Byzantines, Spanish, Portuguese English, French and Germans in the generations to come. Nothing new.

This is the true message of Purim: We refuse to be defined by the hatred hurled at us. No we will not apologize for bringing civilization to the world. We will not apologize for giving the ******ians and the Muslims direction to live a meaningful and Divine life.

We are defined not by anti-Semitism and not by Gentile endorsements and apologies. We are not seduced when a gentile accepts us. “Yankel, you hear the good news?: The Vatican Council has acknowledged that Judaism is legitimate…” A glik hot unz batrasket. We need their approval – we who taught them what G-d wants of the human race!

For a Jew it is a true redemption to see how the nations of the world have evolved and how they have slowly embraced the Divine mandate to the world. We are delighted to see how a nation like the United States has embodied the principles given at Sinai and taught by Abraham.

No, this is not the vindication or victory of the Jews over the nations. This is G-d’s victory, the universal victory that nations have been tamed and civilized. And we Jews celebrate – we celebrate whenever we see a human being living up to his or her Divine Image.

The true message of Purim is that we have been given a Divine mandate how to live our lives. Abraham, father of all nations, began teaching it, and at Sinai it was formalized, and it was consummated on Purim. It took centuries for the nations of the world to first embrace it and then to integrate it. For over a millennium and a half the nations went through their “growing pains” and killed millions of Jews and others in the process.

Hopefully, now the nations have matured to a point when they can embrace their calling without the need to demonize the Jew.

Yes, there is a trial going on this month. The human race is on trial. Will they embrace the Divine mandate given at Sinai for all peoples, will they finally come to realize their own calling – to cherish the seven universal Noachide laws upon which all of civilization is based?

And Jews? Jews have to get out of the “galut mentality” and rise to the occasion. We have been blessed with carrying the Divine mandate for the human race, and we must live up to our destiny. We live in a world more refined than ever. Never before has their been a country like America driven by the Biblical vision of life -- offering human beings their basic freedoms, inalienable rights endowed upon us all by the Creator who creates us all equal.

The stage is set. We have today unprecedented opportunities to utilize these freedoms to inspire and teach the world the Divine principles of civilization.

If anything, the issue that The Passion exposes is this: Has ******ianity finally matured? Has it finally achieved a self-confidence and security to acknowledge its roots in Judaism without having to “kill the witness”? Or will they regress to the Middle Ages and validate and define themselves only through invalidating Judaism?

And finally, will Islam now follow their lead?
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Unread 02-29-2004, 01:36 PM   #24
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LOS ANGELES - Mel Gibson and his parents are under fire today from a leading Jewish group for reportedly anti-Semitic impulses in the former's new film and the latter's denial that Al Qaeda executed the Sept.11 attacks.

The actor's father, Hutton Gibson, told The New York Times he flatly rejected that the terrorist group led by Usama bin Laden had any role in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon Sept. 11.

"Anybody can put out a passenger list," the elder Gibson told The Times. "So what happened? They were crashed by remote control."

He and the actor's mother, Joye Gibson, also told The Times that the Holocaust was a fabrication manufactured to hide an arrangement between Adolf ****** and "financiers" to move Jews out of Germany to the Middle East to fight Arabs.

"Go and ask an undertaker or the guy who operates the crematorium what it takes to get rid of a dead body," Hutton Gibson told The Times. "It takes one liter of petrol and 20 minutes. Now six million?"
Said Joye Gibson: "That weren't even that many Jews in all of Europe."

Rabbi Marvin Hier, head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, shot back. "To bigots and antisemites, no amount of evidence of scientific proof is ever enough. In their world, only hate matters."

The comments from the Gibson family come just after the actor built a church near Malibu that caters to a revisionist version of Catholicism.
According to The Times, the church has a congregation of 70, including the star of such films as "Braveheart" and "Conspiracy Theory."

Mel Gibson, a devout Catholic, is directing and co-wrote an upcoming movie "The Passion," rooted in a theological movement known as Catholic traditionalism that seeks to return the faith to its pre-1962 period, before the Pope issued what is known as Vatican II, a series of proclamations that did away with the notion that Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of J****.

"If the new film seeks to undo that," Hier told The Times, "it would not be uncovering truth. Rather, it would unleash more of the scurrilous charges... directed against the Jewish people, which took the Catholic Church 20 centuries to finally repudiate."

Gibson is filming this in Latin and Aramaic with no subtitles. His father says that the "Second Vatican Council was a plot put out by the Jews." . . . . When asked if Jews might be offended by his movie, Mel Gibson says: "It's not meant to. I think it's meant to just tell the truth. I want to be as truthful as possible."

the passion plays in Germany were the most anti-Semitic plays, given annually, with the Jews portrayed as ugly, terrible characters.
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Unread 02-29-2004, 03:14 PM   #25
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