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Unread 08-18-2003, 11:18 AM   #1
Jude
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Yiras Shomayim

yiras shomayim=fear of heaven

If you were/are looking for a shidduch for yourself or your child, how would you determine whether a candidate has yiras shomayim?

If you were a principal of a school and needed to hire melamdim or moros, how would you know if the interviewees have yiras shomayim?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 11:43 AM   #2
Torah613
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For starters - davvening betzibur 3 times a day at a reasonable hour, no talking by davvening, and of course, kvius itim even when not "obligated" (bein hazmanim etc.).

Last edited by Torah613; 08-18-2003 at 01:10 PM.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 11:59 AM   #3
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A sofer should be a yirei shomayim, but you buy based on ksav; a shochet should be a yirei shomayim, but kashrus is based on the shchitta. Because what's on the inside you can't know.

That said, what you can do, IMHO:

1) Examine the decisions that the person is making in their life. This is where their inner world is reflected. What sort of jobs have they taken? What sort of integrity have they shown?

2) And I would not ignore the hergesh one gets. Anyone can put on a show of of external adherence to the SA (even every day of their life, halevai), but this sixth sense is (depending on your own past accuracy) a valid complement (not replacement) to what I stated above.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 12:19 PM   #4
rebayzl
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YN, wow! You Really have HIGH expectaions of people. I think we should judge people by their behavior alone. No one knows what's in his fellow's heart.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 12:45 PM   #5
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I agree that we can't know what's in his fellow's heart, as stated in my previous post (I thought ). That's why you have to look at actions (what I expressed as "decisions").

On the other hand, would you hire someone who looked good on paper but you didn't get a good "feeling" from the person, over another candidate who didn't have as good a resume but you did have a good feeling about them?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 01:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
A sofer should be a yirei shomayim, but you buy based on ksav; a shochet should be a yirei shomayim, but kashrus is based on the shchitta
is that so? I think reputation for yiras shomayim plays a big role, at least for some people. But that gets us back to the original question - what is this reputation based on?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 01:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson
A sofer should be a yirei shomayim, but you buy based on ksav; a shochet should be a yirei shomayim, but kashrus is based on the shchitta. Because what's on the inside you can't know.
I disagree somewhat. There are sofrim and shochtim, that based on actions that I observed or am aware of, I would not eat from or use their parshiyos, no matter how nice or how fine the "technique".
I am not disputing the "sixth sense" you refer to - but it all starts from action - maaseh bepoel.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 03:37 PM   #8
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I'm assuming that we are discussing how to differentiate between candidates who are otherwise qualified for the task, be it shochet, mohel, melamed, or baby-sitter.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:11 PM   #9
Jude
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
For starters - davvening betzibur 3 times a day at a reasonable hour, no talking by davvening, and of course, kvius itim even when not "obligated" (bein hazmanim etc.).
are you saying then, that adherence to Shulchan Aruch is an indication of yiras shomayim?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
are you saying then, that adherence to Shulchan Aruch is an indication of yiras shomayim?
You didn't ask me, but my two cents: takka no.

(Please forgive such a radical chiddush...)
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:26 PM   #11
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I agree.

An example:
People who daven 3 times a day and in general, live a Torah life, who drop a lot of that when on vacation.

Is there such a thing as part-time yiras shomayim?

To make things even more complicated, what about someone who in some areas exhibits yiras shomayim, while in other areas he doesn't?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
what about someone who in some areas exhibits yiras shomayim, while in other areas he doesn't?
Unless you require a tzaddik, this "patchwork" yiras shomayim is about all that's available

That's "patchwork." As for "part-time" yiras shomayim, I guess it depends on how you feel about something like "part-time" honesty or "part-time" fidelity.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:37 PM   #13
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I just read an article in which someone says yiras shomayim should be top of the list of shidduch requirements. So HOW do you determine whether someone has "enough" (?) yiras shomayim for a shidduch or a melamed position etc.?

Might it be possible that someone is not careful about davening b'tzibur regularly, but in other ways demonstrates yiras shomayim? I think yes.

And isn't it possible that many of the Jewish practices like davening 3 times a day b'tzibbur, etc. are habits, good habits but still habits, and so they don't demonstrate yiras shomayim? After all, "habitual yiras shomayim" is an oxymoron!
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Unread 08-18-2003, 04:52 PM   #14
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Of course someone could go to shul 3 times a day etc. merely out of habit. That is why I stressed (in my original post) "for starters".
Someone who regulary wakes up late, rolls in to shul on Shabbos at some unearthly hour, talks during davvening ....(fill in the blank) is lacking.
Doing these things properly may noy make him a YS, bit it sure is a start. Everything begins with SA.
(YN: I didn't understand post # 10).
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Unread 08-18-2003, 05:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Someone who regulary wakes up late, rolls in to shul on Shabbos at some unearthly hour, talks during davvening ....(fill in the blank) is lacking.
talking during davening is unacceptable, but what about night owls who stay up late learning and then wake up late and daven late?
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Unread 08-18-2003, 05:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
(YN: I didn't understand post # 10).
Sarcasm. It's no chiddush to say that many observe the SA as rote ritual without inner content.
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Unread 08-18-2003, 07:59 PM   #17
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Shulchan aruch should be a given, its the beyond the letter of the law and the feeling that indicates yiras shamayim
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Unread 08-18-2003, 08:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamachassid
Shulchan aruch should be a given, its the beyond the letter of the law and the feeling that indicates yiras shamayim
its the beyond the letter of the law and the feeling that could indicate yiras shamayim
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Unread 08-18-2003, 10:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude


talking during davening is unacceptable, but what about night owls who stay up late learning and then wake up late and daven late?
Depends on what "late" is - late after 7 AM or late after zman KS and Tfila?
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Unread 08-19-2003, 09:10 AM   #20
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I think that there are two categories of yiras shomayim. The Real yiras shomayim is something between you and G-d. Yira is an emotion of the heart and only Hashem knows what's doing in your heart. Remember, yira is fear, fear of sin and awe of Hashem. How do we behave when alone? Is it with the feeling that "shevisi Hashem l'negdi samid" (I place Hashem before me constantly)?

"Practical" yiras shomayim is seen in a person's actions, and it is this that we are told to look for in a sofer, shochet, melamed, shidduch. And this entails adherence to Shulchan Aruch and even beyond.

Sometimes the Real yiras shomayim is seen in a person's actions, when it's clear that the person's actions are motivated by yira rather than habit or peer pressure. For example, two boys are on Mercaz Shlichus, out in the boondocks. They face challenges with kashrus, observance of Shabbos etc. Maybe one of them is willing to cut corners, to take the easy way out. The other one insists on doing it Right.
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Unread 08-19-2003, 09:36 AM   #21
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A person can exhibit mesiras nefesh even without yiras shomayim.
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Unread 08-20-2003, 03:30 PM   #22
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There are different levels of yira (yiras cheit, yiras Elokim, Yiras Hashem), but the common denominator and defining factor of them all is "Kabbalas Ol" vs. "Prikas Ol" (ch"v). Kabbalas Ol, here, does not mean listening to your mashpia it means feeling that you have no right to transgress G-d's will. Prikas Ol (ch"v) means to feel that its okay to do whatever you want.

This feeling, however, is general--he will do whatever is G-d's will. There is a separate issue of knowing what G-d's will is. A person can have perfect yiras shomayim and not do even basic commandmants, if he doesn't know that these are G-d's will. The indicator is his attitude. As soon as he is conviced (yes convinced, not informed) that this is G-d's will he will do it.

A person can qualify as being a yorei shomayim (one with Kabbalas Ol) and still not be perfect. This can come from three reasons (1,2,4), thus there are four categories:

1. His inclination getting the better of him. People fall into temtation at times, but so long as he feels that he is doing something wrong and realizes that he has a problem and wants to improve it, his transgressin does not detract from his status of having Kabbalas Ol. (This is the lowest level.)

2. His nature is bad. Some people are naturally nasty, others are naturally giddy and overly talkative. If such people mess up in these areas, they still qualify as having Kabbalas Ol. (This is better than the previous level.)

3. He has a strong and complete fear of sin through arousing a feeling of fear of G-d in prayer, and this feeling leaves an impression on him all day. (This is the avodah that brings one to be a benoni, a explained in Tanya. The first two are noramal frum jews. The first lacks in "fear of sin", the second in "fear of G-d", but both have a general "fear of Heaven.")

4. He has a fear of G-d (from comtemplating in prayer), but falls into sin at times. Thus his fear of sin is not commenserate to his fear of G-d. This comes from a lack of work in the service of the heart in prayer or service of the mind.

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Unread 08-20-2003, 03:31 PM   #23
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This is explained in the introduction to Derech Chayim, as well as the book itself.
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Unread 08-31-2003, 08:24 AM   #24
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so how do you instill yiras shomayim in your children (students)?

boys - since yarmulka is actually yarei malka, making sure yarmulkas are on (at night too) is one thing parents can do

what else? and what about girls?
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Unread 08-31-2003, 09:21 AM   #25
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Girls are born with it.
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