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Unread 01-12-2003, 08:56 AM   #26
Bittul
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The Haflo'oh didn't side against R Noson Adler, he advised him to take up a position of Rabbonus somewhere else to avoid Machlokes. That position didn't last.

Germany in general was a stronghold of the reformation of Judaism, Frankfurt included. Maybe that affected the Haflo'oh's son somehow.

I only need Diukim in Seforim and letters etc. to tell me the history of someone when that history is not known. When the history is known and told (in fact, even in print!) then the Diukim must be viewed in light of that history. We are not historians - a kabalah Baal Peh is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Last edited by Bittul; 01-12-2003 at 09:00 AM.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:21 AM   #27
Torah613
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I think it says somewhere that Germany wasn't a "keli" for Chassidus.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 11:21 AM   #28
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Quote:
I only need Diukim in Seforim and letters etc. to tell me the history of someone when that history is not known. When the history is known and told (in fact, even in print!) then the Diukim must be viewed in light of that history. We are not historians - a kabalah Baal Peh is perfectly fine and acceptable.
What history and story is known to you, it seems you had no idea about the Haflaah etc?

please provide your source about the haflaah advising etc.

If someone just browsed, let alone perused, the droshes of the baal Machne Halevi, son of Haflaah, sees immediatly that he was a big fighter against Maskilim etc. But he was apperantly a big Misnaged

(btw, in the letter to haflaah, the AR send regard to his illustrious sons)

There was a big article, done very well, in the Jouranl Beis Aaron Veyisroel (Karlin) a few years ago, on the relationship between Haflaah and Cahsdisos, they campared ponim yofos to ideas expressed in casidos and found hundreds of comparisons, Very good work (I have it, but lasy to search for the copy burried in a stack of seforim)

In the intro. to Mishors edition of Ponim Yofos, they claim that the Tzanzer made the claim about those who deleted the name of the magid. (also they write a rumor, that the M.S. of Ponim Yofis exists and is ownd by some collector, and in there all attributions to the Magid are to be found!)

The Zemach Zedek Brings the Ponim Yofos hundreds of times in Ohr Hatoreh!

Going back to Chasam Sofer, in his Famous Tshuva (OC simon 15)about Nusach Hatfileh he writes about his 2 masters RNA and "mori verabi Rabon shel kol bnei hagole hagoen Haflaah, they davened Nusach Arizal and no one davened with them and his son hagoen Baal Machne Halevi did not daven only Ashaknaz. And immedialy after the passing of his father closed the minyon and went to daven in the big shul"
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Unread 01-12-2003, 01:19 PM   #29
BitulTorah
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IIRC [Reshimois somewhere] Baal Hafloah didn't call the Magid "Rebbe".
In one of the early koivtzei Ohr Yisroel there was article(s) about the connection between CS and chassidus.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 02:06 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bittul
Ummm... Sorry, please check facts first.

A) It's very clearly written that it was Nosson Adler who was (also - yes the Baal Haflooh I do know about) a Talmid of the Maggid.

B) The Chasam Sofer was NOT a Talmid of the Baal Haflo'oh. The Baal Haflo'oh became Rov in (Frankfurt?) right before the Chasam Sofer left.
Bittul, you claim outrageous things such as the above, and then go on to say you don't need history and diyukim etc.....
Go back read up and then post , please
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Unread 01-13-2003, 01:12 PM   #31
Bittul
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I haven't seen anything posted here to change my mind or make me revisit the Mekoros that I have seen.
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Unread 01-13-2003, 01:28 PM   #32
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Excuse me?? You stated that the Haflo'oh was NOT Chasam Soifers rebbe, so how do you answer the contradiction from the numerous times Chasam Soifer relates to him as such???
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Unread 01-13-2003, 02:34 PM   #33
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In Yakov Dovid Shulman's Bio of the CS, he states very clearly that the Haflo'oh and RNA were held by the CS as his Rebbes -- meaning that he held both of them in such high regard and would often Poskin based on what he learned from both of them.

The Haflo'oh was a student of the Maggid.
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Unread 01-13-2003, 03:02 PM   #34
pretzel999
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BTW, Chasam Sofer also learned by the 'Machzis Hashekel' (a commentary on the Mogen Avrohom in Shulchan Aruch, printed at the bottom of the page in almost all editions)
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Unread 01-13-2003, 04:48 PM   #35
masbir
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So, Botel, in fact, he is never confused by the facts!
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Unread 01-13-2003, 06:04 PM   #36
Bittul
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Quote:
Originally posted by yehonasan
In Yakov Dovid Shulman's Bio of the CS, he states very clearly that the Haflo'oh and RNA were held by the CS as his Rebbes -- meaning that he held both of them in such high regard and would often Poskin based on what he learned from both of them.
This quote is what is meant by the title given by the Chasam Sofer of Mori VeRabi to the Haflo'oh.

When I say R. Noson Adler was his Rav Muvhak, it is in the sense that the majority of his learning, in his youth and teen years, was under the direct tutelage of RNA.

Not that you would care for the differentiation, as long as you can make a point. But the differentiation is, that I have been discussing his direct learning with one of them. If your discussion is about who he considered his Rebbe as yehonasan describes above, then the situation is most definitely as above.

When I describe your pulling out details (such as his statement of Mori VeRabi about the Haflo'oh) to say that he actually spent time in direct one on one learning with him as distorting history, that's what I mean.

So again, with more details: The Chasam Sofer was NOT a Talmid of the Haflo'oh in the sense that he sat with him over Seforim and learned from him. He DID consider him his Rebbe and authority with regards to many things.

Last edited by Bittul; 01-13-2003 at 06:07 PM.
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Unread 01-13-2003, 07:43 PM   #37
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally posted by pretzel999
BTW, Chasam Sofer also learned by the 'Machzis Hashekel' (a commentary on the Mogen Avrohom in Shulchan Aruch, printed at the bottom of the page in almost all editions)
Does he ever refer to him as his Rebbe (I know the CS was in Boskowitz with RNA, but where does he refer to him as his "Rebbe")?
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Unread 01-13-2003, 08:06 PM   #38
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Just noted this thread and am astounded by some of the claims. CS was defintely a talmid (in literal sense) of Haflooh as attested by his children and descendants - even to the point of quoting in his deroshos the Haflo'oh's sichos chulin - as he writes "ho'il de'apik mipumei degavro kadisho lo yiga loreik ch"v, and would sometimes combine RNA and the Haf. together "es hakohen ve'es halevi".
Not only did he quote the Tanya, but also the Baal Shem Tov, though under the guise of "mekubolim" (drosho Shabos Hagodol 5562). Also the Berdichever (again under guise of mekubal echod) (Al Hatorah, Vayeitze) - as quoted in Tiv Gittin.
R. Shimon, son of CS, of Cracow, related that his father was officially non-connected (opposed?) to Chassidus, but personally loved it, and said that he follows his rebbe the Haflooh in that, who it is said there, was instructed by the Maggid to conceal his connection in Frankfurt (Zichron LeMosheh, p. 152).
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Unread 01-13-2003, 10:55 PM   #39
BitulTorah
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Thank you Bocaj.
Derech Agav The quotes you bring and more are in the article I mentioned before kovetz Ohr Yisroel Choiveres 5 [There is also an article in Bais Ahron VeYisroel and Tzanz from Boim also brought down in above article] basically in those articles the inyan is exhausted.
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Unread 01-14-2003, 01:54 AM   #40
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Quote:
Not only did he quote the Tanya, but also the Baal Shem Tov, though under the guise of "mekubolim" (drosho Shabos Hagodol 5562). Also the Berdichever (again under guise of mekubal echod) (Al Hatorah, Vayeitze) - as quoted in Tiv Gittin.
Bocaj, as always thx for adding some interesting details
I'm not sure however how it could be known that when CS quotes 'mekubolim' or 'mekubel echod' he means the Besht or Berditchever, since many Torah ideas could have actually been said by others before, unless these 'gedanken' are known to be theirs.
I saw somewhere that in a hesped on R'N Adler which has been printed, the CS did not hold of shitas hachasidus, but I have not seen it inside. As an interesting factoid, Erloyer Rov, R' Yoichonon Soifer direct ben achar ben who has a big yeshiva and a large chassidus in Yerushalayim ,Shtreimels long peyos etc. is still makpid to daven nusach ashkenaz kepsak hachasam soifer
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Unread 01-14-2003, 09:23 AM   #41
yehonasan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bittul


When I say R. Noson Adler was his Rav Muvhak, it is in the sense that the majority of his learning, in his youth and teen years, was under the direct tutelage of RNA.


Based on this bio, i think you are correct. The CS literally followed Rabbi Noson Adler outside of Frankfurt and then on the way back, he told the CS to go on his own. Buy he did learn under Rabbi Adler from the age of 10 through the teens except for 1 1/2 years.



No doubt that the CS learned Kabbalah and emphasized the Pinimiyus of the Torah.
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Unread 01-14-2003, 10:24 AM   #42
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Pretzel - normally your claim is correct, but not in these cases. The saying he quotes beshem mekubalim appears only and exclusively in the Toldos beshem Habesht (and from there in Kesser Shem Tov. The one of "mekubal echod" - he actually quotes his source, Tiv Gittin, where it is stated explicitly beshem the Berdichever.
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Unread 04-06-2003, 09:47 AM   #43
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When the sefarim, “Teshuvos ha’Chasam Sofer” were brought to the Tzemach Tzedek, he examined them and read some teshuvos and then said: a lamdan! A lamdan!


(from the reshimos of R’ Chaim Meir Heilman, author of “Beis Rebbe”)
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Unread 10-05-2003, 12:57 AM   #44
shoyn
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<Just found in Sichos of Shabbos Chol Hamoed Sukkos 5711 bilti mugah, that the CS was a talmud muvhak of RNA, and RNA was a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh, who was a talmid of the Magid, which is why there are Chassidishe verter in CS, ayin shom.
But as I wrote, it being "bilti mugah", I think it "tzorich iyon godol" and a peleh to refer to RNA as a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh.
Masbir?>

see attached letter where it seems to say clearly as above sicho that RNA was a talmid of Baal Hafloo!
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Unread 10-05-2003, 08:15 AM   #45
RebMoshe
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<Just found in Sichos of Shabbos Chol Hamoed Sukkos 5711 bilti mugah, that the CS was a talmud muvhak of RNA, and RNA was a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh, who was a talmid of the Magid, which is why there are Chassidishe verter in CS, ayin shom.
it is well known that this kesher, is the reason that although the Hungarian Rabbanum continued in following their Ashkenaz customs, there never developed a significant 'misnagid' leader and community. Many of the Rabbis there went to Rebbes (the CS sent his son to Tzanz.) Poland also developed in similar lines, which is why Poland became overwhelmingly chassidic.
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Unread 10-05-2003, 09:42 AM   #46
Torah613
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Shoyn - Thanks for that source (which was shown to me recently by someone).
Ah pelah!!
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Unread 10-06-2003, 10:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by shoyn
<Just found in Sichos of Shabbos Chol Hamoed Sukkos 5711 bilti mugah, that the CS was a talmud muvhak of RNA, and RNA was a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh, who was a talmid of the Magid, which is why there are Chassidishe verter in CS, ayin shom.
But as I wrote, it being "bilti mugah", I think it "tzorich iyon godol" and a peleh to refer to RNA as a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh.
Masbir?>

see attached letter where it seems to say clearly as above sicho that RNA was a talmid of Baal Hafloo!
With the greatest respect to the above letter, there seems to be an error here.

RNA was NOT a talmid of the Haflooh - but rather the other way around.

Both were in Frankfurt at the same time - the BH was Rav and RNA was Rosh Yeshiva.

The latest issue of the Erlauer Yeshiva publication "Beis Sofreihem" has begun a series about RNA. There, it also brings the fact that the BH studied kabbolo by RNA.

And, BTW, it is sad to see this whole thread containing so much historic ameratzus - by people who are truly interested in the lives of these gedolei olom - the CS, RNA and BH.

There are literally dozens and dozens of seforim on the Toldos of these kedoshim utehorim, which most of the mainstream charedi tzibur [who have interests in Jewish history], have read. Sadly Chabadniks - except for the serious researchers amongst them, have never even heard of these seforim. They are missing out on SO much!

Lemaaseh, the CS was a talmid of both the BH and RNA [as well as several others]. The BH and his brother - the Rebbe Reb Shmeke of Nickelsburg were both talmidim of the Maggid.
RNA was not.
But RNA was very much into kabbolo.

Try and get a copy of the above-mentioned journal Beis Sofreihem - and even if you do know much on this topic, you will learm even more.

Zechusom Yoegein Oleinu.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 09:57 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
They had no direct relationship, but as mentioned in Chasidus somewhere, he was a Talmid Muvhak of R' Noson Adler who was a Talmid of the Maggid..
He was a Talmid Mehuvak of R' Nosson Adler, who was a talmid of the Ba'al Hafla'ah, who was a Talmid of the Maggid.
(Toras Menachem, vol. 1 ,p. 31)
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Unread 04-14-2010, 02:10 PM   #49
Torah613
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Guess what! That very source, was brought earlier in this very thread, by none other than......... ME! Amazing, isn't it?
If you would know any history, you would also know that the quote you brought is rather pele'dik, as also brought earlier...
Whatever.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 02:16 PM   #50
Eltere Chossid
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I'm trying to start bringing sources for things, only to discover that the very one that motivated me to start already posted the source .
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