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Unread 08-30-2011, 01:07 PM   #1
mushky38
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Educational question

Situation:
The teacher enters the classroom and see a child sitting on another child who is lying on the floor of the classroom, holding his hands.
The teacher takes the child off of him yelling / scolding him and for dessert adds a penalty.
What the teacher did not see that half an hour before it, that "poor" child would not stop pestering and annoying the kid on top and only when it expired nervous he did what he did.
my questions are:
1. Is the teacher Correct behavior with the child?
2. Is there really a child on top Correct behavior
3. What to do with a child's frustration at not only plagued him he still got punished?
Thank a lot
and sorry for my english
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Unread 08-30-2011, 06:24 PM   #2
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Key

This teacher should have the hootzpa to apologize to the misjudged child. And as for the little criminal that he was on top of, tell him to cease and desist from bullying his classmate. Then let the teacher check in weekly...EVERY WEEK, as to how their relationship is developing. He should even tell both of them to "GRADE" each others kindness towards them. From a A+, B-, C or from a 1 to 10 scale.
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Unread 08-30-2011, 06:32 PM   #3
Torah613
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So if child A annoys child B, it is acceptable for him to resort to violence?
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Unread 08-30-2011, 08:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
The teacher takes the child off of him yelling / scolding him and for dessert adds a penalty.
No educator should ever lose his temper with the children, regardless of the situation. It may be proper for him to make a show of doing so, but inside he should be calm and collected and in control.
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Unread 08-30-2011, 10:27 PM   #5
Torah613
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Maybe this was also a show, to impress upon the youngster not to get violent?
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Unread 08-31-2011, 06:45 PM   #6
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You're right, I wasn't there. I hope it was.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 09:07 AM   #7
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Show of violence is the best way to impress upon someone not to be violent?
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Unread 09-15-2011, 04:25 PM   #8
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When did I say show of violence? I said, a show of getting angry.
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Unread 09-18-2011, 07:44 PM   #9
FlyingAxe
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Getting angry and expressing one's anger is a form of verbal violence.

But a deeper question is: what does the teacher teach the child? That when the child grows up and his wife makes a mistake while making a chollent, it's ok to get angry?
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Unread 09-19-2011, 12:20 PM   #10
mosheh5769
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There is no middah in this world which is inherently bad or good. It all depends in which mesure and in which circumstances you're expressing your middos.

Anger can be appropriate when expressed in the appropriate situation and with good mesure.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 01:11 PM   #11
Malkizedek
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Rambam seems to say the opposite. See Hilchos Deos.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 02:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
Rambam seems to say the opposite. See Hilchos Deos.
Right, but Rambam is not the only one on board. There are some others who say that something as a healthy anger does exist, that we shoudn't always smile when a situation asks for a controled anger. Expressing an angered and displeased face, while remaining calm within yourself is also another alternative.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 03:12 PM   #13
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FlyingAxe: Not all gevurah is bad, and not all chessed is good. Both can be appropriate when done in the right time and measure, or inappropriate when not done so. See here.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 03:26 PM   #14
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In Chabad, the Rambam may well be the "only one on board." But if there are others, please quote them. Appearing angry is not the same thing as being angry.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 03:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
In Chabad, the Rambam may well be the "only one on board."
Studying the Rambam on a daily basis does not mean that Chabad paskens like the Rambam on every line written by him.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 04:57 PM   #16
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Understood. Find some sources that say otherwise, then we can talk about whether Chabad holds like them over the Rambam.
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Unread 09-19-2011, 08:34 PM   #17
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Sorry, a claim was made with no support--can someone please quote sources that contradict the Rambam on this? Sounds like a big chiddush to me.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 07:48 AM   #18
Torah613
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How exactly does "Chabad" get into this discussion? There is a "minhog Chabad" about anger?
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Unread 09-20-2011, 12:14 PM   #19
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This is not a question about what Chabad holds. I'd be interested in finding any source that says anger is a neutral middah. Rambam says no. In Chassidus, we hold anger akin to avodah zarah. But if there is a source that says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 03:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
FlyingAxe: Not all gevurah is bad, and not all chessed is good. Both can be appropriate when done in the right time and measure, or inappropriate when not done so. See here.
Even gevurah must be appropriate. For example, reprimanding a child is an act of gevurah. Reducing his grade for a Math homework because he didn't show his work as an incentive to do so is an act of gevurah (not always appropriate one, by the way). Showing one's anger is a sign of lack of control over one's emotions.

Furthermore, it is disrespect to a child who is, after all, another Jew. I don't understand how people find it permissible to act towards children (especially not their own children, i.e., strangers) in a way they would never act towards adults. (Yes, there are some corporate bosses who yell at their employees, etc. But I think most people would agree that such behavior is not appropriate for a civilized human being.)

Furthermore, we are talking about education here. The Rebbe, in a sicha commenting on Pirkei Avos, notes that we give examples of the animals we should learn from (in Pirkei Avos and in Shulchan Aruch), and these animals are not kosher. At the same time, the Rebbe himself instituted the campaign of making sure that non-kosher animals are not children's toys.

The difference is: one should learn from these animals, but not as a child. Children should be raised in purity and can learn from the animals when they are older.

Children are influenced especially easily, and things that they see in their childhood affect the way they will behave as adults (bechira and education/upbringing in teenage years and adulthood notwithstanding). So, by showing anger, a teacher shows the child that it is ok (or even appropriate) to get angry at another person and display the anger in public. He shows that it is appropriate to embarrass another person in public.

Also, I don't care if there is a practice of throwing salad at other people during farbrengens (or calling them fools), and if this practice goes back to Alter Rebbe's chassidim.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 04:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
In Chassidus, we hold anger akin to avodah zarah.
I assume you mean the Maamar Chazal (maybe based on the gemoro in Shabbos, maybe on the Zohar, כידוע השקו"ט בזה) which the Rambam quotes (not a chiddush of Chassidus, though Chassidus explains the connection (as do other seforim)).

I do not know where it would say anger is a "neutral midah", but there are cases that it is justified.

For example:

מגן אבות לרשב"ץ על אבות פרק ה

קשה לכעוס ונוח לרצות חסיד תימה הוא, ומה חסידות יש במי שאינו כועס? והלא אמרו בשבת [קה ב] בפרק האורג, כל הכועס יהי בעיניך כעובד ע"א. ואמרו בנדרים [כב א] בפרק ארבעה נדרים, כל הכועס, כל מיני גהינם שולטים בו. ויש לומר, שיש עתים שהכעס טוב, כמי שכועס על בעל עבירות, כפנחס בשטים. וכבר אמרו ביומא [כג א] פרק בראשונה, כל תלמיד חכם שאינו נוקם ונוטר כנחש, לאו תלמיד חכם. וזה במילי דשמייא ולמה נענש שאול, מפני שמחל על כבודו, כמו שנזכר שם. וכן דוד צוה לשלמה, 'וגם אתה ידעת את אשר עשה לי יואב בן צרויה' [מלכים א ב ה], ונאמר 'ועשית כחכמתך ולא תורד שיבתו בשלום שאול' [שם ו]. ועל כיוצא בזה נאמר, שהחסיד רשאי לכעוס, אך שיכעוס בקושי ויתרצה מיד. .
Also, there are cases when one may act angry, for specific purposes.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 04:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
The difference is: one should learn from these animals, but not as a child. Children should be raised in purity and can learn from the animals when they are older.
I believe this to be totally inaccurate and wrong.
The Rebbe did not say this.
Every child who learns Kitzur Shulchan Aruch learns these lessons from these animals.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 06:44 PM   #23
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This is not, in any way, a source for justifying getting or acting angry, but here are two cases where the Rebbe was angry b'rabim:

Here and here.

And I don't believe the Rebbe was an oved A'Z, C'V, in those cases.
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Unread 09-20-2011, 10:58 PM   #24
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Rambam says nothing about appearing angry - only *being* angry. I, for one, don't know the Rebbe's inner kavanos. I will assume that the same applies to you.
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Unread 09-21-2011, 05:32 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
I, for one, don't know the Rebbe's inner kavanos. I will assume that the same applies to you.
So, you're conceading that there may be some cases when anger can be accompanied with proper kavanos, and thus anger is not always bad, right?
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