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Unread 09-01-2003, 03:58 AM   #126
Ephy
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Nope,
For a number of reasons:

1. My parents want me to do the exams here, under this states education system, which means i have to stay out the whole 2 years of the course, so by the time i get out, it will be end of cheshvan/beginnig of kislev in a year and a bits time.

2. So since my parents want me to do it in this stae there is no other possible Jewish alll boys school to go to.

3. If I leave the school, the school is going to be greatly affected, due to its small numbers especially in the senior years and financial factors.

4. For our summer (your winter) this year i went oversea's to a really good proper limudei hakodesh mesivta, I nearly stayed there in spite of my parents wishes, but my mashpia told me to come back and afterwards I worte to the Rebbe a few times, the answers i got were very ambiguous and vague, so my mashpia thought that it wouldn't be rational to go back to another mesivta without the Rebbe's clear brocho.

5. Even though im 17, im old for my class, so by the time i get outta 'ere ill nearly be 19, and I will have to go to a Yeshiva mid seder...
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Unread 09-01-2003, 08:58 AM   #127
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Ephy, I can really sympathize with you. Teen years are frequently fraught with these kinds of difficult decisions.

Hatzlocho,
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Unread 09-01-2003, 01:36 PM   #128
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Ephy, some of the confusion needs clearing up:

A) There are many schools with Heterim to be co-ed, Chabad schools included. You need to ask a Rov in the sense of Halachah, not a Mashpia, about that option.

B) It is ABSOLUTELY not your responsibility to make sure the school stays open. It is your responsibility to grow in your Yiddishkeit in the best way possible. Sticking it out in the school is ONLY an option if it is beneficial to you.

C) Your worry should not be if you will at Yankel's or Berl's level in a year's time, but whether your Yiddishkeit, Yiras Shomayim and learning will continue to grow - which will not happen if you're depressed. There are Yeshivos you can join mid-stride, Yeshivos specifically to get you up to stride. Don't make a decision for now based on an unknown future.

This is not an encouragement to leave. It's making sure you're leaving the door open to that option if there's no way out.
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Unread 09-01-2003, 10:15 PM   #129
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Ephy,

Yours is clearly a challenging situation, however, Chassidus teaches us that challenges are not handed to us to cause us to stumble, G-d forbid. Rather, they are opportunities for tremendous growth.

Obviously, those of us who are only getting the anonymous cyber-version, can respond only in generalities (Bittul has made some excellent points), and you need to be in constant touch with your Mashpia. Assuming that your Mashpia meets the Rebbe's criteria for someone of that position, his close knowledge of your situation (re parents, friends etc.) coupled with the special Divine Assistance the Rebbe promised, will enable you to persevere and even succeed beyond your own expectations.

As a point of interest, there are a number of letters in Igros Kodesh, addressed to both bochurim and girls who wanted to leave schools which they felt were below their standards, and the Rebbe strongly insisted that they stay - in order to have a positive influence on the other students. Again, only your Mashpia can properly guide you, but perhaps you have a shlichus where you are.

Wishing you the utmost Hatzlocho,

RavLub
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Unread 09-02-2003, 02:03 AM   #130
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thakyou all.
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Unread 09-02-2003, 03:57 PM   #131
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Best of success, and may your burden lighten!
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Unread 08-09-2004, 10:56 PM   #132
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does anyone have some good articles about the damage of co-ed schools?
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Unread 03-12-2005, 03:16 PM   #133
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Nearly three-and-a-half years after all the mentioned above, I finally managed to get to a computer during an off-shabbos from a chabad-yeshiva in eretz yisroel and i found it very amusing to see my journey again first hand. I think that in the end it all worked out for the best. BTW in the end the school managed to survive and i finished school about 4 months ago with very good results (perhaps better results than i would have recieved at my original school). My parents now know much more about what is going on at our chabad house than i even do. My father is on the shule-comittee, puts on tefillan everyday and even when i am away from home now, my mother still keeps a kosher kitchen. Thank you all for your good advice and i hope to see you all before i even finish this reply in yerushalayim ir hakodesh.
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Unread 06-26-2005, 05:43 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
As others on this forum have previously pointed out, even Rabbi Soloveitchik zt"l, who himself founded a co-ed school more than 1/2 a century ago, did so only because "he had no choice" - not because he held it was permissable. In fact, I heard that Rabbi Hershel Shachter (who probably more than anyone else knew what the Rav held) mentions (in one of his writings) that the Rav told him that he was afraid that after 120 years, he would be questioned by the Heavenly court why he participated in the founding of a coed school.
why didn't he have a choice?
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Unread 11-09-2009, 01:14 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
does anyone have some good articles about the damage of co-ed schools?



FYI there is a Chabad Day School where the classes are mixed through 5th grade and the later grades is only mixed for English.

This is the only Chabad Day School the Lubavitcher Rebbe's wife ever visited.

It was founded by her father. They have been open close to 60 years now.
95% of their full time teachers are professionals.

Some of the classes have English in the mornings.
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Unread 11-12-2009, 01:17 PM   #136
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does anyone have some good articles about the damage of co-ed schools?
depends on at what age.

Below 12 or thirteen, it doesn't change or accomplish much at all. Boys have cooties in girls minds, and girls are icky in boys minds, and n'er in the twain do they meet.

however, once they reach middle school, the issues change.

Girls by in large are hurt by coed schooling, they perform more poorly in class, they are more distracted, etc. in secular society, the vast majority of highly successful women attended girls only universities.

Boys on the other hand seem to show an increase in performance durring school hours at least, as well as a major decrease in behavioral problems. (as the saying goes, the girls civilize them, because they want girls attention, and no girl will pay them much attention if they're bullying people or acting like a total jerk. likewise the ability to show off their higher grades can serve as an impetus towards higher achievment.)

or thats what I learned in my ed classes. later I'll try to find some articles for you.

oh, and the stress present in all boys enviornments seems to corrolate well with an increase in being motzi zera levatala.
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Unread 11-12-2009, 04:02 PM   #137
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Yeah, right--an all-boys environment is worse than a co-ed one Simply sickening.
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Unread 11-12-2009, 04:12 PM   #138
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My aunt who works in a Lubavitch school told me the following story: this lMonday, a day off was organized for youth Children of the Lubavitch community (Children aged between 3 and 5 years). Two small pools had been set; one for the boys and one for the girls and a Mechitzah between them. Suddenly, one of the boys came out of the water, pushed the Mechitzah, dropped his pants, entered the pool of the girls and peed there. He got out the pool as if nothing had happened, and the girls stayed there, eyes wide open.

This is perhaps not related to the topic, but it shows what can happen, even in infancy, when girls and boys are mixed together (of course that the boy acted with "innocence" after all , but try to imagine what these girls could have thought).
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Unread 11-12-2009, 05:20 PM   #139
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As quoted earlier, the Rebbe said to separate the genders "migil hachi rach". What the farshtunkene apikurseshe secular sociologists say is immaterial.
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Unread 11-12-2009, 05:38 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
As quoted earlier, the Rebbe said to separate the genders "migil hachi rach". What the farshtunkene apikurseshe secular sociologists say is immaterial.
That's quite right
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Unread 11-13-2009, 07:23 AM   #141
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Yeah, right--an all-boys environment is worse than a co-ed one Simply sickening.
Halachicaly we don't save one group of people at another's expense.

Its true, no? My own personal experiene bears this out, not to mention the personal experience of anyone i've ever met.

ask any teacher in a coed school, they'll tell you that the higher the ratio of boys to girls, the more behavior problems.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 09:53 AM   #142
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I'm not at all sure what you mean by the above, or how your limited "experiene" bears on the matter. However, all of the major poskim agree on this issue. Pragmatism is all well and good. But the halacha is clear.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 11:35 AM   #143
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ktonton, I have no idea what you mean about halocho. Regardless, your outrageous claim that segregation in schools is a bad thing for either gender totally contradicts Toiroh, which mandates such segregation for our benefit, and this claim shows just how much you have been corrupted by the secular studies that you learn.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 11:40 AM   #144
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I don't think that recognition of Halachah as the final authority requires us to reject empirical data. Studies show that coeducation is good for boys academically (though bad for girls academically). Those studies may be right or wrong. I'm not a scientist, and therefore have no comment on them. Torah states that such an arrangement (whether beneficial for students academically or not) is not beneficial for students spiritually. Moreover, such an arrangement is prohibited - thus rendering any discussion about the academic benefits of coeducation irrelevant.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 12:07 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
ktonton, I have no idea what you mean about halocho.
Oh, I can tell you what he means.

He will say, that before the last century, the norm was co-ed education. Any restrictions on it are recent, from right wing fanatics, who did not know the source material as well as he (- ktonton) does. Also, he clearly remembers a tshuva of an earlier century that clearly permits it, nay even encourages it, but chaval that a faulty memory does not have a reference to enable anyone to look it up.

Also, he has spoken to many rabbonim and educators - L and non L alike, and they all agree that there are no such restrictions in traditional halachik Judaism, and cannot explain the present norms. Even more, the experts claim it is good for the children, and we all know one has to listen to experts.

Let us add to the mix that we are talking about pre bar and bas mitzvah children, and the issue becomes so much easier.

Especially coupled with the known fact that all male enviroments lead to many sins (that need not be spelled out here), which everyone knows do not happen in a co-ed enviroment, and one wonders what those forbid it are thinking.

(Sources: One picks up a style, after a while. Just check out the tznius threads, and others).

Last edited by Torah613; 11-13-2009 at 02:03 PM.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 12:09 PM   #146
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meshulam, ktonton wasn't only talking about academics. He was talking about middos and hisrachkus mei'avero. And then to reach an implicit conclusion that the sociologists know better than Torah what's good for a person is outrageous. Which is aside from the fact that I've no doubt this is debated, like most areas in such disciplines.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 12:40 PM   #147
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Oh, I can tell you what he means.

He will say, that before the last century, the norm was co-ed education. Any restrictions on it are recent, from right wing fanatics, who did not know the source material as well as he (- ktonton) does.

Also, he has spoken to many rabbonim and educators - L and non L alike, and they all agree that there are no such restrictions in traditional halachik Judaism. Even more, the experts claim it is good for the children, and we all know one has t listen to experts.

Let us add to the mix that we are talking about pre bar and bas mitzvah children, and the issue becomes so much easier.

Especially coupled with the known fact that all male enviroments lead to many sins (that need not be spelled out here), which everyone knows do not happen in a co-ed enviroment, and one wonders what those forbid it are thinking.

(Sources: One picks up a style, after a while. Just check out the tznius threads, and others).
Bingo.

Noahides: I'm not defending ktonton (whose posts are largely indefensible on these issues). I'm just making the point that recognition of halachah does not require us to reject empirical observations. At the end of the day, the position of the sociologists, psychologists, etc. (even if proven true beyond a reasonable doubt) are irrelevant: we do what Torah says regardless of whether doing otherwise might have certain temporal benefits.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 12:53 PM   #148
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Seems to me it is also debated in Torah circles. There is no clear opinion at what age children should be separated in the Torah world. Perhaps everyone agrees that Bar Mitzvah is an upper bound, but the schools and relevant Torah authorities in my city argue about whether segregation is needed in third grade, first grade, play group, etc.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 12:58 PM   #149
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Bingo.

Noahides: I'm not defending ktonton (whose posts are largely indefensible on these issues). I'm just making the point that recognition of halachah does not require us to reject empirical observations. At the end of the day, the position of the sociologists, psychologists, etc. (even if proven true beyond a reasonable doubt) are irrelevant: we do what Torah says regardless of whether doing otherwise might have certain temporal benefits.
To add, empirical data is only as good as the measuring scale used. In this case, the Torah concept of a successful boy is different from the secular view. For example, a secular sociologist might say that a healthy high schooler has romantic relationships with 2 or 3 partners during the course of high school. He might also say that it is normal, appropriate behavior for a boy to put up a picture of his favorite model in his room. In the Torah world, these behaviors would be regarded as... less than great.
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Unread 11-13-2009, 01:02 PM   #150
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R' Moshe's opinion is a little later than the Rebbe's, but not by much. By Bar Mitzvah, most children should barely remember ever having sat in integrated classes.

But, MahTov, the rest of your comments hit the nail right on the head as usual.
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