The Yeshiva System

[cbd101]

Im a lubavitcher bachur who this year reached a decision to leave yeshiva . it wasnt a decision i reached myself but something which i discussed with my mashpiem and agreed on that it would be the best path for me. however now that im out it really bothers me the way that people look at someone who so to speak leaves the system.. for anyone that went through or is going through yeshiva, you know that there are a lot of guys that sit around all day and do absolutely nothing! they wake up @ 11 daven, sit in zal doing nothing all day but they are looked @ as "good bachurim" because they are in yeshiva, on the other hand someone like me who is up every morning to daven with a minyan has several daily keviyusin in learning and makes sure to always catch micha and maariv with a minyan as well is looked @ as a "bum"!

besides for that the whole yashiva system is built that there are so to speak "top yeshivas" where the smart guys go and then the yeshivas for guys that are weaker in learning although many times they happen to be better bachurim are termed the "bummy" yeshivas ! as i went through the system i can tell you first hand that i know guys that are top learners but had / have no qualms about being mechalel shabbos if it so suits them, but in hanholahs eyes these guys are the "good bachurim" because they know how to learn!

i think its time that we in lubavitch open up our eyes and realize that its because of things like this that we have so many guys (and girls ) that are unfortunately frying out ! back in the day in russia etc. not everyone went to yeshiva if someone was not fit to learn but fit to become a shoemaker even if he was the ravs son, thats what he did and no one looked down at him and on the other hand if the shoe makers son was bright he went to a yeshiva! ( remember the rebbe established bais sefer lamlacha for a reason! ) i think its time that people realize that not everyone is a "square" not everyone fits into a certain mold especially in a yeshiva setting where most of the day you are learning one subject - gemara - people have to realize that not everyone is geared for the same thing and just because someone has a difficulty with gemara or any other subject and cant learn as well as the others doesnt make them a bum, they simply have something else which they are good at and something else which they were sent into this world to accomplish!

when the masses finally come to this realization and accept the fact that not everyone is the same i think many more of our teens will finally feel that they belong and not that they are outsiders and therefore wont have to look to be accepted elsewhere

[mosheh5769]

The problem is not the whole yeshiva system but the board of the yeshivah, those who run it and what they do for that the Bochurim feel involved in some degrea in the daily seder halimud and the general life in the yeshiva.

Concerning the other point, I'm one of those who agree that not everyone is made to be a yeshiva bochur and that in fact there are some young boys who are wasting their time and their parents' money in achieving nothing in yeshiva, and for those young men, it's appropriate to teach them the necessary skills for earning a living. It's not a shame to be a lubavitcher without a smicha or having spend so many years in yeshiva for nothing.

For me, there are three main reasons that can explain why people prefer wasting their time an money in yeshiva rather than learning how to make a living: 1) it may affect a prospective shidduch; 2) there is a general feeling that if you didn't go through the yeshiva system and are not involved in shlichus (with all the different definition attached to the word) you're not a true soldier of the rebbe; 3) 'related to number 2) only lubavitcher who are involved in shlichus are valued (you know, to travel around the world, sometimes really far; making a tremendous mesirus nefesh, and all the other idealic images attached to shlichus and Chabad; just look how shluchim and shlichus are portrayed on the various media and in our community), the others are a failure (so nobody want to be counted into the "failure" group, so even if they know there're wasting their time and money, it's better than being a "loser").

I personaly know some people in that case. They know they are not in yeshiva to study and their parents also know, but because the father or the mother (generaly the father) is someone influencial in the community, it would be a shame. So, it leads to a very serious and sensitive question: what to do with such young boys and men? I don't have any solution, but sometimes, to throw them out of the yeshiva may have more dramatical effects and in some cases, because there is no apprpriate (yet) program for them, it's better to keep them in. There are even a few cases where with some obstinacy, a "bad" bochur became a good one (or at least an average one). And I don't think that one of the signs to identify a "bad" bochur is to see at what time he gets up every morning. In fact, I know some very good bochurim who sleep a lot, don't pray with a minyan but when it comes to study, there are among the best in the yeshiva and there have very good middos.

Something should be done, but throwing people out (without any alternative program) is often more dramatic. What do you achieve in doing that? More bad than good.

[cbd101]

you proved my point exactly that "it''ll affect shiduchim, that its the "failure" group .
why is it that a guy who is frummer and a better shomer torah umitzvos than many bachurim in yeshiva looked at as a "bum" / failure? why is it that one of my good friends parents told my friend that they dont want him to hang out with me because itll look bad on him (and its not like we are ten year olds we are both over 18) ! im not someone who is going around with dreadlocks and jeans i wear a white shirt i wear a hat and jacket and never miss davening with a minyan i attend shiurim in the community but becuase im not in yeshiva im worse than other guys who are in the "system" that i personally know daven after zman let alon not davening with a minyan, dont learn a jewish word, hang out with girls etc. !

and i didnt say the time that they get up is the problem what im saying is that there are a lot of guys that waste entire days

[ktonton]

ok, so send your kid to a chabad yeshiva with secular studies, make sure that the kid does well, is chazak in what he believes, and then send the kid on shlichus to the boonies for four years where he can get a degree, learn in his spare time, and be "on shlichus" strengthening a shlichus community, backing and helping out the local shliach, making sure that he has a minyan, etc!

everyone wins, and noone will ever know that your kid was in college, and it'll be "how much mesiras nefesh he has!" for everyone, and the shliach will vouch for how much of a chossid he is, and the girl will think "yay I can go on shlichus!" etc etc and everyone ends happy.

There is a world outside of CH you know.

[mosheh5769]

I agree with you on many points and sure, something should be done and mentalities must change. People should understand that not everyone is made to be a yeshiva bochur and that the many other skills of their dear children may be usefull more than expected for the whole community. But the question is: if you quit the yeshiva, where are you going? How will you use your time?

I can give you an exemple that is genuine: I know someone who decided to quit the yeshiva because he saw that he was not made to be a bochur. His RY spoke with his parents and a counselor. The questions they had to face were: what are his other skills and how to make him use those skills for the benefit of the community to keep him connected so that he can still has a feeling of belonging and not a feeling of failure?

After some discussions, it appeared that he was very gifted in computer and graphic design.

And do you know what, he is, at his very young age, the graphic designer of one Lubavitch news website, and because he is very good in orthography and writing, he checks and edits every article before their publication on the website. It keeps him in the track, he kept his feeling of belonging to Lubavitch and...it improved his capability of studying (he has a personal teacher at home).

This is one exemple of plausible alternative to the yeshiva for those who cannot study and waste their time doing nothing and the money of their parents. And in the same way, it keeps them in, doesn't alter their belonging to Lubavitch and it makes them being fully involved in Lubavitch.

As I told you, if there is no alternative, throwing them out of yeshiva is often really dramatic and a bad service for them, their parents and the community. Without any other alternative, and if their unwillingness to study is not contagious, it's better to keep them in.

It's over time to provide programs tailored to these people, while keeping intact their belonging to Lubavitch, telling them they can serve the community but with other means and differently. At the end, everyone will win: the child, the parents and the community.

[mosheh5769]

And the advice given by Kronton may be a good idea too.

But leaving the yeshiva to sulk and do nothing and regress is a mistake. (I'm not implying that you're sulking, it's just to say that if you have no plan B that keeps you connected to the community and yiddishkeit, it's not good to simply leave like that and say "goodbye".)

[cbd101]

obviously if someone leaves he has to have a concrete schedule planned out for him and thats why before making that decision it should be discussed with people whom the bachur respects and can advise him regarding this issue which again brings back the problem that all to many times the hanholas dont care1 when the vachur is there and doesnt do well all to times hanhola view him as a lost case not worth "wasting" time with, then once he leaves he becomes a "nebach " to pity! if they would only try helping him out originally maybe the outcome could have been different!

and mosheh5769, i am not speaking about boys who are "fit " to be thrown out of yeshiva im addressing the problem of guys that are models bachurim in everything besides for that they have a difficult time learning.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by cbd101

and mosheh5769, i am not speaking about boys who are "fit " to be thrown out of yeshiva im addressing the problem of guys that are models bachurim in everything besides for that they have a difficult time learning.

The problem is not the whole yeshiva "system" but the board of the yeshivah, those who run it and what they do for that the Bochurim feel involved in some degree in the daily seder halimud and the general life in the yeshiva. It depends on the atmosphere the board create in their yeshiva.

How is it that they have difficulties learning? Most of the time, it's because the way they are taught in their yeshiva is not appropriate. Every bochur is different, but when the Yeshiva has appropriate methods and create positive atmosphere for all, everybody (good bochurim and less-good alike) are responding positively and it affects the desire and the strenght to study for every bochur. Teachers should learn and be formed to deal with such bochurim. They seriously lack such training.

I don't know if it's related, but it reminds me of a speech given by Rabbi Wechter Shlita at a Yom Iyun for principals held by Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Eretz Yisroel which was reprinted in BM on the issue of chinuch and yeshiva bochurim:

I would like to begin by commenting on the fact that we see more and more Yemei Iyun taking place, as well as courses and workshops for teachers. This is a wonderful new development, and it’s a pity we didn’t have this in previous years.

The Rebbe Rayatz, in his letters, writes of the need of continuing education, and in the Igros Kodesh we find that the Rebbe repeatedly emphasizes this point. Today, everybody acknowledges the importance of ongoing education for educators, and so we hope this trend continues.

* * *
We must closely examine the unusual times we find ourselves in, and try to liberate ourselves from simply imitating the teachers of yesteryear, even the good ones.

Generally speaking, everybody - including parents and mashpiim - educates their charges in the way they themselves were educated. I once sat at a teachers meeting where someone, who was a talmid of a mashpia of the previous generation, was speaking. He described how his mashpia would slap a bachur who didn’t learn, and issued fines, etc. His message was that we should do the same thing.

When he finished speaking, I spoke, and I asked a simple question. If chinuch amounts to hitting, why did the Rebbe Rashab ask us to think about chinuch for half an hour a day (or in another version, an hour)? You don’t need to think for half an hour a day in order to hit a child! And calling children names is something anybody can do with ease.

Although who am I to speak about the previous generation, the Rebbe Rayatz wrote against this practice, and said we should not shame and we shouldn’t use violence.

When we talk about the present generation, it’s clear that we’re working with altogether different children. All agree to this and talk about it, and we must take this seriously in order to be able to be effective educators.

It says in Mishlei, “loyal are the wounds of the one who loves, and devious are the kisses of the one who hates.” We don’t want even a kiss from an enemy. It turns us off. But from someone who loves us we’re even willing to be wounded.

By way of introduction: The mashpia of today is not like the mashpiim of yesteryear. Once upon a time, a mashpia demanded of himself yiras Shamayim, the learning of chassidus, etc., in an extraordinary manner, and he deserved feelings of reverence and respect on the part of his talmidim. From the perspective of the mekabel the atmosphere was different too. Children before the war were like those ten generations earlier. The gap between us is incomparable.

In addition, and this is the main thing, the enticements from the street are frightening. If we put the enticements of the street of all generations on one side of the scale, and put the enticements of our times on the other side of the scale, the enticements of our times would weigh more.

Once upon a time, they searched for the yetzer ha’ra in distant places. Today, homes have Internet, videos, and cell phones. All you have to do is press the button and the yetzer ha’ra is there. According to what I have heard from experts in the field, there are situations going on that are so terrible they can’t be described here. Yet we still must educate children to yiras Shamayim, chassidus, and learning.

What is this compared to? It’s like a teacher who decided, in the middle of Purim, to teach his students a topic in the Gemara Bava Basra or in Hemshech 5666 or 5672. It just won’t work. Everybody is celebrating, and nobody has the head for learning on Purim. This is the situation that now prevails all the time, not just on holidays.

Still and all, we definitely are able, and are given the abilities, to succeed, even now.

A rav used to be a powerful figure. My father told me that in the big city he lived in, there was a store that was open on Shabbos. After the davening, the rav went to the storeowner, slapped him in public, and the store was never again open on Shabbos. Today, a rav cannot anger the community. Bachurim need to have a positive relationship with their mashpia. If they don’t, they have many other options to explore.

There are other significant differences between today and the way it used to be. There are people who do research to learn who has a greater share in shaping a child - the home or the school. Today’s reality is such that children are shaped primarily in school. They come home after a day at school tired and unable to listen. If we are talking about a yeshiva bachur, then he comes home late at night and his parents may be sleeping already. The responsibility then rests with the teachers and staff in elementary school and yeshiva!

Someone once asked me when it’s okay to say something harsh. I answered as follows: A person is driving and breaks the law. A policeman stops him. The driver’s reaction is oppositional and there is tension between them. The policeman maintains that he’s the policeman while the driver digs into his position. What does the policeman want to accomplish? He wants to uphold the law that is for the good of everyone, including the driver. Nevertheless, the driver opposes him. He tries every tactic, uses a radar detector, etc., the goal being to drive faster than the law allows. Yet the law is for his benefit!

Yet, if the same person goes to the doctor and pays him a fortune to do an operation, he doesn’t argue with the doctor. Why is this so? Because you go to the doctor knowing it’s good for you, but the policeman comes to you! The way he presents himself is that he is above you and he is telling you what to do. When you disagree with him, he defies you. You see the doctor as being on your side, and that is why you pay him. You see the policeman as your enemy.

But how do you explain the fact that he really desires your benefit maybe even more than the doctor does? The problem is in the role that he plays - that is what makes the difference.

In order for a mashpia to do his job properly, he must get the talmidim to think of him as a doctor, and then he can chastise them and punish them (if necessary). Before he manages to establish this sort of relationship, every word he says against the talmid only harms the relationship and engenders hatred and the desire for revenge.

Years ago, a mashpia was considered one who loves a talmid, in addition to which, the talmid of those days didn’t have many other options. Today, if the talmid feels the mashpia doesn’t love him, even the mashpia’s affection will be rejected.

I once met a bachur wandering around outside while a farbrengen was taking place in yeshiva. I asked him why he wasn’t inside at the farbrengen, and he said that he was once shamed at a farbrengen and so he won’t participate anymore.

When R’ Zalman Moshe HaYitzchaki farbrenged, they wanted to hear him even though he was generous with the bitushim [means of crushing the ego]. However, when a talmid doesn’t want to listen, you’re simply stabbing him. The old approach, when used today, will accomplish the opposite of what it accomplished years ago.

A talented man who used to be a bachur who sat and learned, reached the point where he barely opens a book. He once told me that when he was back in yeshiva he had a special interest in nigleh. One of the mashpiim came down hard on him for learning only nigleh and managed to turn him off from learning altogether.

I know another man who only learned chassidus. He simply enjoyed it and preferred learning over other pursuits. At a farbrengen in yeshiva, a mashpia spoke in an insulting way about his not learning nigleh, and thus succeeded in turning him off to learning chassidus too. This made him trim his beard, etc. It was only after a long time that, baruch Hashem, he began getting back to what he was. There are many other stories like this. The reprimand wasn’t supposed to be given at a public farbrengen.

Fifty years ago, a derogatory word could bring about bittul on the part of the mushpa. Today, it no longer works that way. Chinuch that is based on criticism will ruin a child, because when a talmid feels low, he concludes that he is hopeless and there is no point in trying. A child once obeyed his father. Today, it’s not as common, and in some cases, a child wants to take revenge! A child is not given alternatives and the result is that he does what he wants.

There is a story from the Rebbe Rayatz, who was sitting in a train compartment with distinguished representatives of various parties who were arguing amongst themselves about which political view was correct. They wanted the Rebbe’s opinion. The Rebbe said that every approach had some truth to it, and this truth was derived from Torah. The form it took was incorrect because they altered the proportions, but in the right form and place, it would be true.

The same is true for modern-day psychology and secular ideas of education. The first and primary issue, before beginning to educate - whether first grade or yeshiva g’dola - is to find ways to create a positive atmosphere in the classroom. A situation in which the maggid shiur, the teacher, or the mashpia are on the defensive must be prevented. Screaming and anger are signs of a defensive posture. The student responds in kind and it’s an ongoing war.

When the talmidim feel that their welfare is important to the adults and that the adults are interested in their success, then even criticism or a telling-off are effective.

How do you create a positive atmosphere in the classroom? An atmosphere is created in a number of ways, including: the way of talking, reward and punishment, how the learning is done. If the friendliness is missing from the atmosphere, it’s much harder to learn. There is tension. When it’s physically difficult, it’s hard to learn and when it’s spiritually difficult, it’s even harder to learn.

How to create a positive atmosphere is an entire Torah in itself and has broad relevance. Memories of school will accompany a child forever, whether positive or negative. We can and must make a bachur’s stay in yeshiva a pleasant one by relating to him warmly and positively so that he will enjoy the learning and won’t feel bored and look for alternatives. In the future, when he passes his school building, he should recall the happiest days of his life.

A principal was once looking for a mashpia for his yeshiva. I suggested that he take someone who could be a mother and not just a father to the boys. A bachur, especially one between the ages of twelve and fifteen, needs to feel he has someone to talk to.

The challenges we face today are enormous. Just walking down the street is fraught with spiritual challenges. It’s a real challenge. An adult goes with the flow of life, while a bachur, who has nobody to listen to him, finds refuge on the street or on the Internet.

We must find ways to attract and interest a student. Talks and Tales used to be popular but it’s nowhere as popular anymore because it doesn’t have pictures.

...

The Rebbe is the only Jewish leader who knows how to reach the youth; it’s only through the positive. When they enjoy their studies, when they feel that this is the best place to be, we will succeed. They won’t go looking for forbidden fruit, which is so easily obtained.

We have got to come to terms with the current state of affairs and look for ways to educate today’s children. We must challenge a talmid to find interest in learning. One way is through the kovtzim that the Rebbe established and encouraged, wherein talmidim contribute original Torah thoughts. The Rebbe said that competition within Torah is a good thing.

......

The battle today is for the talmid’s soul. Each mashpia should make a survey to discover why his talmidim left yeshiva, and to try to improve the situation. A talmid must be warmly welcomed, encouraged, and guided, each according to his needs. The bachur should yearn for his yeshiva days.

Regarding tests - the way test questions are phrased must be clear to the talmid. There is no reason to try trip up a talmid, unless the teacher is trying to prove his superiority over his students and to cover up for his lack of confidence as a teacher.

A good mark is the most effective way of encouraging talmidim to keep learning. Experience has proven that when a bachur fails, his motivation to carry on is low, while a good mark makes him feel good about trying further.

There are principals here, people who are responsible for hundreds and thousands of talmidim. I will give one example to show how to get the maximum out of our talmidim.

I once spoke with some roshei yeshiva about how a new masechta is started in Elul, and how a bachur is enthusiastic about it. He says to himself: I didn’t do that great with the previous masechta, but I’ll learn this one properly!

Yet the bachur knows there are only three weeks until Tishrei, and the trip to the Rebbe and the preparations for it start at the beginning of Elul. The bachur doesn’t have a chance to really get into the learning. When he comes back to yeshiva after Tishrei, they are already up to the fourth daf and we lost out on the initial enthusiasm of a new start.

If talmidim are enthusiastic at the beginning of a new z’man, we have to take advantage of it! Maybe we should learn lulav ha’gazul, Meseches Rosh HaShana, for four weeks so the bachur can enjoy learning something new, and after Tishrei start a new z’man and a new masechta that we learn until Chanuka. The students’ enthusiasm for learning should be our highest priority, and we need to take advantage of it whenever possible. We must come up with ways to excite the students.

One year, a week after Purim, a maggid shiur came to me and complained that his talmidim weren’t learning. He had yelled and fined them, but it didn’t help.

I gave him the following advice: Close the Gemara you’re learning. You have two weeks left. Make it a project to finish Arvei P’sachim, the laws of s’darim, and the Rebbe’s Hagada.

He said he would try my suggestion, and a few days later, he told me his students had learned all of Arvei P’sachim and the Hagada. It was something new for them. The chapter of Arvei P’sachim is about twenty pages with a lot of agad’ta. The bachurim learned and became familiar with the Rebbe’s Hagada, and their Pesach was altogether different.

If they had stuck to the curriculum, not only would they have not learned about Pesach, but they would also not have learned the masechta they were supposed to learn.

There is a maggid shiur who bitterly complained how he prepared his shiur until three in the morning, but felt that he was talking to the walls the next day in class. I said to him: You are giving over your chiddushim in your shiur. Why do you think they have to listen to that? The purpose of the shiur is to convey to the talmid what he needs and wants to hear, not what you want to say. The bachurim are not interested in your chiddushim. If you care about the bachurim, your job is to teach them what they need and want to hear.

The rosh yeshiva already learned the masechta five times. He went on to the Rambam, etc. He has a question and he builds an entire edifice out of it, etc. When the talmid is unfamiliar with the simple understanding of the Gemara, why would he be interested in what the Rambam says on the subject? Our approach must be to give the bachur the tools he needs to prepare the Gemara properly!

...

A Gemara shiur is given only after the talmidim have already prepared the material and know it well.

In short: we must satisfy the thirst of the talmid, and not force him to listen to the things that interest the teacher. If he hears what interests him, he’ll have enormous satisfaction from it, and will feel how it’s all talking to him.

Lately, I give a shiur in chassidus on Friday night in the high school. The condition I have for attending the shiur is that everyone prepare the material ahead of time. When I teach, I ask them how they understood the material, and when I add my explanations, they really enjoy it.

One of the shluchim in the yeshiva was amazed by the shiurim and said he had learned the material a number of times, but at every shiur he discovers something new. If they wouldn’t prepare the material, they wouldn’t enjoy the shiur, and they would fall asleep after a few shiurim.

Talmidim in a classroom must feel that every shiur adds something, and if they miss a shiur, they lost out. If they don’t have this feeling, it’s the fault of the maggid shiur.

The same is true for chassidus. The mashpia must give the talmidim the tools to learn a maamer properly, how a maamer is structured, how it’s divided, how we examine every word and understand that every word is in its precise place. Doing this creates a fluency from the beginning of the maamer until the end.

There is much more that can be said, but the point is: We can improve chinuch on many fronts, and “if you put in the effort, you will find!”

In conclusion: all is dependent on the atmosphere that prevails in the yeshiva and how the board manages it. And that's what I learned in my yeshiva years. In this way, even good bochurim who don't know how to study will improved to become better bochurim who know how to study.

[cbd101]

it seems as if you are in denial to the possibility that there is such a concept that some people have weaknesses in certain areas, it is a fact of life.
btw about the atmosphere in a place making a difference it is true to a point however know the yeshiva i am coming from happens to have been one of lubavitches "better" yeshivas who when they accepted me discussed where i was holding in learning and insisted that a system such as thiers would be good and the magidai shiurim would help me get along, but push comes to shove what he cared about was that there would be another body by his shiur, whether or not i understood, he couldnt give a hoot! and unfortunately most of our yeshivas geared for a lower learning level are not model yeshivos ! the lack of good yeshivos with good bachurim for a lower learning level is a tragedy! even bachurim with difficulties learning that are helped along in good yeshivas feel the so to speak lacking they realize the way that they are looked @ by hanhola and its not a good feeling and i know in the past 2 years quite a number of guys that have left as a result of these feelings, so no even a good yeshiva with a atmosphere of learning is not the answer!

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by cbd101

it seems as if you are in denial to the possiblity that there is such a concept that some people have weaknesses in certain areas, it is a fact of life.

There is no denial from me, but sometimes, when you have a good stimulus, even those who have weaknesses will improve.

And from what you wrote, we can see that it's not the Yeshiva "system" that is to blame but other factors. You know, it's like in a family: you cannot always adjust the rules to please every member in the house, but at least you try to create an environnement pleasable for evry member.

[cbd101]

improve, yes. however take girls high school for example, they study many different subjects so if someone isnt good at one thing they can still excel at another do well and feel accomplished in yeshiva on the other hand where we have one base subject - gemara- and if someone has a difficult time learning it at the end of the day even if he progresses little by little you like ending the day feeling accomplished feeling that you did something useful and that feeling you will never have! this is what drives guys to then look for something that they are good at something through which they know that by doing they will leave feeling accomplished. and actually the few members of hanhola that i have had in the past couple years that actually cared all felt this same way and have all told me again and again that the main thing is that you end the day feeling accomplished and happy with what you are doing!e
and a point is; that the envoirment is not one which is good to most bachurim, just look how many guys are leaving the system and how many more would love to but are afraid of the reaction that people would have and therefore sit in yeshiva day in day out growing depressed and feeling sorry for themselves, its no wonder that when so many times when guys like that leave they drop everything, they have been crying for help for years and have been ignored , who would want to stay in a system like that?
and again the system is not geared to handle so many of our bachurim, yes the system,there is just nowhere for so many guys to go!

[mosheh5769]

Nobody said the opposite and this is why I told you the story of the young bochur who is involved in diffusing Chasidus on the Internet. He can do what he knows best, while staying connected and involved in the community's life and Chasidus and be a proud Lubavitcher. I know someone else who left yeshiva and opened a store that is a true blessing for the local community, and so on.

If your mashpia adviced you to leave yeshiva because it will be better for you, so be it, and use your skills for the best and choose an activity that wil contribute also your community, so people will see that you are not leaving and you want to stay in.

[gyf]

CBD,
You have made some good points. From early on, many people try think things are "one size fits all". Some of my kids have done well in the yeshiva system and excelled. Others have not. I have recognized this and I am letting the others concentrate on there strengths rather than letting the system destroy them.

I wish you all the best. You sound like a sincere person. Once we reach adulthood, get married and make our way in the world people forget about who learned where etc..We are then judged by our actual merits. Do not worry about shallow people that may want to pass judgement on you.

[mosheh5769]

Chasidus teaches us to recognise HaShem in everything we do, be it plumber, a yeshiva bochur, a doctor or any other activity, we can contribute to make our world a better world and a taste of Olom Habo.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean we shouldn't give a try to the yeshiva.