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Unread 08-18-2008, 04:05 PM   #1
flowerpower
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shedding light?

I have another one of those gender questions, only this time im really stumped. I have an eighteen year old friend who is shomer nogeya. She somehow met up with this boy at a meal somewhere. she did not feel anything at all and was not taken by him or anything. however, he was by her.
over the next few weeks, it was uncanny how often they bumped into each other. she is the kind of girl who will talk to a guy and by now knows him quite well and is very comfortable around him- as in feels herself and is not putting on a show. he has expressed a desire to marry her a number of times, and it could be they will get married, just she would like to wait a while being she feels to young. till now, after three or four months already, they have not touched at all.
so what do we have here? a boy and girl who ARE comfortable talking to the opposite gender, seem to have found their destined. there was no lowness involved, they both have their heads screwed on- ok it might b hard now in the time it takes till they actually get engaged, but since they live miles apart now, there is no chance of nething underhanded!!! it makes me really wonder... if ur a good girl/ boy and know ure strengths and weaknesses- you could actually end up with a chosson from talking to the opposite gender! anyone have any answers for me???
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Unread 08-18-2008, 05:01 PM   #2
noahidelaws
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Is your question "how can a sinner benefit?"
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Unread 08-18-2008, 05:50 PM   #3
flowerpower
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Is your question "how can a sinner benefit?"
not at all! quite the opposite...
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Unread 08-18-2008, 08:23 PM   #4
Torah613
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They should get married sooner rather than later.
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Unread 08-18-2008, 08:44 PM   #5
noahidelaws
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Is your question "what is the sin here?"
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Unread 08-18-2008, 10:13 PM   #6
MahTovChelkeinu
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I'm going to go on the assumption that this really is a good pair - each one has behaved properly the whole time aside from the obvious and they really are right for each other.

Three points:

1) This pair is the exception. Unfortunately, the majority of "pairs" that meet through these channels do not end up getting married, but it takes a lot longer to figure out that the shidduch is bad than if they used a more formal dating process. In those cases there is a lot of unneccesary heartache, sometimes a lot of unintended tznius issues, and there is a danger that the couple might be more comfortable with each other than is proper because "eventually we'll get married anyway."

2) Even in the case of this pair, they are making things very hard on themselves. Once there is a strong attraction, shomer nehiah is a very hard halachah to keep (not that it wasn't hard before). One of the reason for formal dating is just to allow both people a bit more breathing room to avoid this stumbling block.

3) You are right. If these two get married as a result of talking to each other, that is a good thing. But you have to ask yourself whether the possibility of meeting your future spouse this way (instead of asking someone to look into a certain boy/girl for you), is really the best way to go?
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Unread 08-19-2008, 01:23 PM   #7
flowerpower
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To answer a point in number two- why do you think in a formal dating situation, shomer nogeya is less of an issue. Some formal dates last months, and the couple are just as alone as on a 'free' date meaning the same thing can happen!
Other than that, I liked you answer. The only thing is, I wasnt asking it because I intend to go out this way- I was counteracting all those other threads about talking to the opposite gender- they all said nothing happens of these things, dont even start- etc etc. It seems to me that if you have a sensible pair, who are old enough, or almost, maybe mature enough would be a better word, to get married- then why is talking to the opposite gender always described as a catastrophic issue?
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Unread 08-19-2008, 01:33 PM   #8
MahTovChelkeinu
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The reason why formal dating is better is because it tends to go faster, meaning you spend as little time as possible in the danger zone. Also, the formality helps each person to keep his or her head. The temptation is a difficult no matter what you do to avoid it, so you really want to make it as easy on yourself as possible.

The other thing to remember is that nobody said talking to the opposite gender is catastrophic. The problem is that it is very tempting, and that can lead to catastrophic situations. And besides that, too much inter-gender mixing is harmful albeit to a lesser extent because, as has been described in other posts, you want to make your relationship with a future b'shert as special as possible.

In my view, the folks that spend months and months going out before making a decision are already in the b'dieved situation - they would decide more quickly but for whatever reason need to spend the time to work things out. L'chatchila a couple should decide fairly quickly, not in one day (that's also a problem), but not after months and months either.
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Unread 08-19-2008, 03:10 PM   #9
Shmully
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Is their relationship based on emotional attraction, and "feeling good" about each other? It seems to have stood the test of time for all of three or four months (during single-hood, which is a limited reality). If they get married eventusally, and one or other feels differently, or that they were too hasty, what grounds will there be to keep them together?

If, on the other hand, they see that they seriously have shared interests and goals for their entire lifetime, and are ready to commit for the long run (and the fact that they met casually was merely "coincidental"), and they have worked through the questions that one would/should on a Shiduch introduction (hopefully under guidance), then it has a chance.

To rely on the second possibility as a preferred option, is obviously very risky, in a question with life long implications. Certainly so for anyone not in their position, but IMHO also for this couple themselves. The fact that the young lady doesn't feel "ready" says a lot. (Perhaps that is why Torah613 wisely says, if it is right, better sooner than later; it would "force" them to look deeper.)
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Unread 03-21-2009, 05:56 PM   #10
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A pair I know met up somehow in high school, went out for about two and a half years (or was it more?), and now, after he's finished the army, she's done a year of sheirut, and is studying, they're planning on getting married (4 Nissan). Would they recommend that? No- they themselves admit that it wasn't the smartest move. Did it work? Yes. Buuut...they didn't do it on their own: their parents were supportive, and they turned to the rabbonim in his yeshiva more than once over the years for guidance.
Probably, that last factor made all the difference.
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Unread 03-27-2009, 06:56 AM   #11
ktonton
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Is your question "how can a sinner benefit?"
last i checked not even the kitzur say its assur to talk to girls, so applying the word "sinner" to this situation is irresponsible and arrogant.

however, that does not mean making a point of this is a good idea, but i don't think that you should freak out when it happens, as long as the shidduch is a good one. (asking parents for input and asking references on the kid is a good idea. and if the parents aren't reliable for this issue then ask a mashpiah or a teacher you're close with or something.)

sometimes this is how hashem makes shidduchim. (for a variety of reasons, ranging from parental obstinance or whatever.)
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Unread 03-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #12
MahTovChelkeinu
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last i checked not even the kitzur say its assur to talk to girls, so applying the word "sinner" to this situation is irresponsible and arrogant.
Actually Pirkei Avos says to minimize talking to women. But if that's the basis for calling it a sin, marriage won't exactly help the situation...
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Unread 03-27-2009, 01:36 PM   #13
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Actually Pirkei Avos says to minimize talking to women. But if that's the basis for calling it a sin, marriage won't exactly help the situation...
read rambam, rashi, avos d'rabbi natan and abarbanel. (the last of which is the only one who would support the point, because he paskens like it says in kiddushin on daf 70 or so that kol diburah erva, but noone paskens like that as far as I know.) (when quoting the issue on that daf (greeting women) taz states that the reason is because of chibah, not kol b'isha erva (origional lashon) i haven't checked the bait yosef though)
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Unread 03-27-2009, 01:43 PM   #14
Torah613
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See Beis Shmuel 21:4.
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Unread 03-27-2009, 02:53 PM   #15
ktonton
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See Beis Shmuel 21:4.
ah, i'd forgotten that. thanks for reminding me.

edit: and i would suppose that the bais shmuel you quoted still wouldn't be relevant because he doesn't hold that kol b'isha erva is relevant to a penuya. (and don't throw the mishnah berura's shita about bais shmuels statement at me, i feel its a very contrived interpretation and i'm honestly too tired to have that argument now. a study of rishonim and early achronim clearly shows that a niddah is not such an erva as are the others, and i seem to remember tosefot (i think) saying this b'pheirush) (the reason being that if one really likes her, one can just wait a little while and marry her, and the derech is that one will not take a woman in a forbiden way when he can take her in a permitted way.)

however, doesn't change the reference to abarbanel who quotes kol bisha erva as the reason why one should not talk very much with them...

although, it would be fair to note that ar"n does state that one should not speak even with your sister in the shuk because of public opinion. (ignoring the escapades of the tannoyim and amoroim)
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Unread 03-27-2009, 03:24 PM   #16
Torah613
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Interesting that you are having a whole argument with a mere reference that I wrote (without any additional comment at all...).
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Unread 03-27-2009, 03:32 PM   #17
MahTovChelkeinu
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I think its funny that this whole piece grew out of a joke on my part. Obviously the Pirke Avos does not make talking to girls a sin because that would mean talking to one's wife a sin as well.
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Unread 03-27-2009, 04:46 PM   #18
Torah613
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Sure, when talking too much...
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Unread 03-27-2009, 04:51 PM   #19
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Pirkei Avos is milsa dechassidusa
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Unread 03-31-2009, 02:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Sure, when talking too much...
...as many men tend to do.
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