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Unread 12-18-2003, 05:53 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Demonstrative Prayer

Quote:
The Rebbe's goal is for everyone to realise their individual potential WITHIN the "system."
originally posted by Shmeryl
Quote:
But not within "Chabad"....

Suppose one is informed by the Gabbai of the local Chabad Anash shul (not Chabad House) that their participation is too emotional......i.e. conform and daven / speak in the same monotone / parrot / lingo.... i.e. TOE THE LINE or you cannot publically participate....

Would the Rebbe prefer that they leave such a Chabad to maximize their individual expression as in the article above or to conform?
If a person is used to praying demonstratively by waving and clapping hands, jumping up and down, crying out loudly, etc. as is the custom in certain other Chasidic circles, there is nothing wrong with that as such, and it also would not distract other members of those circles. But since it's not the Chabad way, if someone would do that in a Chabad shul he would distract others from prayer.

Quote:
....i.e. conform and daven / speak in the same monotone / parrot / lingo....
The Chabad view, which emphasises "pnimiyus" is that demonstrativeness is not necessarily a reflection of true kavana, and that the lack of demonstrativeness is not necessarily a reflection of lack of kavana (although it may well be). I know an eltere Chossid who davvens be'arichus all the time and barely moves while praying.

If you personally feel a need for demonstrativeness that is fine, but apparently the Chabad shul is not for you.

As for what I said:
Quote:
The Rebbe's goal is for everyone to realise their individual potential WITHIN the "system."
...apparently there are exceptions to the rule.
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Unread 12-18-2003, 06:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson
Where I am we see a lot of dancing in one of shuls (not the Chabad House)...my wife calls it the mosh pit.
Well, a Chabad House may be somwhat different, as it is not intended for Lubavitchers. If demonstrativeness works in that place, perhaps the Chabad House should lean in that direction.
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Unread 12-18-2003, 07:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by noahidelaws


Well, a Chabad House may be somwhat different, as it is not intended for Lubavitchers. If demonstrativeness works in that place, perhaps the Chabad House should lean in that direction.
I seem to recall that the Sereph of Strelesk told his hasidim who went to Rizhyn that they should not doven as they did in Strelesk as that was not the custom in Rizhyn.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 01:00 AM   #4
Chassidic1
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B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

If I recall correctly, the Mitteler Rebbe emphasizes (e.g. in Kuntris Hahispaalus) that the Hispaalus-reaction should be natural, i.e., the product of the intellect; this as opposed to selff-induced hysteria.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 02:05 PM   #5
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And the Alter Rebbe needed padding put in the walls because his hands were bleeding from the banging...
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Unread 02-08-2006, 02:18 PM   #6
Chassidic1
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B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

The Alter Rebbe's Hispaalus was a Hispaalus Elokus. This, as opposed to people who work themselves into emotions, i.e. fakers.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 02:26 PM   #7
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Oh, I suppose you are privy to people's private thoughts. <snort>
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Unread 02-08-2006, 05:16 PM   #8
Chassidic1
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B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

You don't have to be psychic, as your comment suggests, to know that the Alter Rebbe - the author of Tanya and Shulchan Aruch - was davening right.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 05:23 PM   #9
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How do you know that everyone else is davening wrong?
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Unread 02-08-2006, 05:26 PM   #10
Chassidic1
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B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

In response to your loaded question: I never claimed "everyone else is davening wrong."
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Unread 02-08-2006, 05:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chassidic1
B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

In response to your loaded question: I never claimed "everyone else is davening wrong."
and yet:

Quote:
B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

If I recall correctly, the Mitteler Rebbe emphasizes (e.g. in Kuntris Hahispaalus) that the Hispaalus-reaction should be natural, i.e., the product of the intellect; this as opposed to selff-induced hysteria.
and even:

Quote:
B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

The Alter Rebbe's Hispaalus was a Hispaalus Elokus. This, as opposed to people who work themselves into emotions, i.e. fakers.
So you contrast the Mittler Rebbe's intellectual hispaalus (and also the AR's Hispaalus Elokus) to (by contrast) fakers. Then you claim not to have accused anyone of davening wrong (except for the fakers?).



I don't get it.
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Unread 02-08-2006, 06:10 PM   #12
Chassidic1
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B"H
10, Shvat, 5765

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
I don't get it.
Allow me to clear up your confusion then, with G-d's help:

Previously I stated that there "others" (i.e. there are SOME people) who fake it. Not, as Chabnika claimed that I supposedly said this was true by "EVERYONE."

In response to a question that might be asked of me as to how I know ANYONE fakes it, even some people: here I would call upon confessions made by myself to others and they to me about having faked it at one time or another.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 02:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chassidic1
B"H
10, Shvat, 5766

You don't have to be psychic, as your comment suggests, to know that the Alter Rebbe - the author of Tanya and Shulchan Aruch - was davening right.
The Alter Rebbe wrote the Shulchan Aruch?
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Unread 03-22-2006, 07:29 PM   #14
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I personally strongly prefer very demonstrative prayer, but I only do that in private. So occasionally, just for the additional kavanah, I daven beyochid. I don't like being noticeable, so in shul I'm very quiet and silent. But when I'm alone anyway, I really take the chance to focus very intensely on my tefilos and that includes fully releasing all parts of my body into whatever directions they want to fly. Sometimes I sing part of it (once I sang all of hallel on rosh chodesh when I woke up too late for a minyan anyway; that was absolutely the best time davening I had in a year). Or clapping my hands, waving, jumping, whatever...

But to do so in front of a minyan, no, thanks. They'd wonder whether I took my pills that morning.
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