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Unread 06-07-2003, 05:25 AM   #51
Klotzkashe
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Well as an alumnus of two very serious Chabad seminaries i can say that a) we learnt gemoro...and sometimes it wasn't just to yotzeh zain (but the teacher got a kick out of our aramaic skills lol) in one seminary we learnt the story of chanukah from the gemoro with alot of rashi and quite a bit of tosfos and it was HARD testing afterward...we also learnt the machlokes of what's in the market etc...im not sure if that's in the same area..it was a while ago.
in our other seminary we learnt...i think it was called elu metzios / and some gemoro about tchumin on shabbos etc...uits not so clearn in my head...
of course every menahel is going to put it to be yotzeh zain..but it doens't mean you dont' have to take the class seroiusly...and u know hwat? for some girls...its the only lesson they'll listen to all week!
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Unread 06-09-2003, 05:03 PM   #52
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Personally, I think the idea of women learning gemara is absurd!!!
For those who think that we need more intellectual stimulas, well there are thousands of other sefarim out there that you probably have never heard of that will accomplish much more for us. How many of you know Missilas Yesharim really well?? Gemara is simply not meant for women. It would just be a waste of a time. Hashem created the Gamara as a refuah for [b]man's ailments, not womens. Therefore it would just be a waste of time. Women would be better off learning a piece of mussar than Gamara. In fact you can tell it's meant for men. I know personally Rabbis who teach/taught women gamara and they say that they just don't have the right mind for it. It doesn't mean that we are stupid (chas veshalom) rather our thought process is different. Now those who will say that they weren't teaching women who were intellectual that is not true becuase I know the women that they were teaching. And they said that it was different from even when boys start learning gamara.... they just don't have the right mind for it. therefore I say go pick up some other sefer that will be more beneficial to you and at the same time creates an intellectual stimulus!

Moshiach should come only at the right time!
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Unread 06-09-2003, 07:05 PM   #53
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First of all, the Rebbe disagrees with the opinions cited in the above post. Please see the previously mentioned sicha for more details.

Second of all, the above post does not contain a single source. It is one person, whose reliability no one can vouch for, writing a lot of her personal opinions without backing a single one up with an opinion of a Torah authority, or any authority.

Third of all, there are plenty of women who can and do learn Gemara quite well. Just because not everyone knows these women or have tested them does not mean they do not exist. Of course men and women learn Gemara differently. We also learn Tanach, Halacha, Chassidus, and all areas of learning differently. We also learn math, science, history, and language differently. The fact that men and women learn differently is not a chiddush. Evidently, this difference in the way we learn Gemara did not bother the Rebbe. Therefore, it does not bother me either.
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Unread 06-09-2003, 10:00 PM   #54
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nata
How many of you know Missilas Yesharim really well??
First time I hear of messilas Yeshorim referred to as a "intellectual" sefer.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 12:34 PM   #55
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Torah, that's a large part of the problem on "your" side. Who learns Mesilas Yesharim indeed! No one does, you just read it. Learning is reserved for the "big hitters" - Gemara etc. and the current Gedolim.

That aside of yours was slightly off topic. On topic, if a woman can study Gemara, I think it's a wonderful thing. The question is about institutionalizing the learning of Gemara.
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Unread 06-10-2003, 02:26 PM   #56
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Bittul
I CV have no problem with MY. Of course it should be "learned" like any sefer and any part of Torah. Just that one doesn't usually equate that type of Mussar sefer with "intellectualism", so I found the example strange. But of coure I may be wrong.
What "side" of mine do you mean anyway?
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Unread 06-10-2003, 08:42 PM   #57
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sorry... i think my post was a little misunderstood. first of all I wasn't trying to say that Messilas Yeharim was an intellectual sefer rather a important one. Therefore if you want to pick up a intellectual sefer then do so (I see if i give examples I'll be ponced on). I was simplly trying to explain why many Rabbanim think that learnin gamara is assur for women. Being that it wasn't written for them "it was a rofeh for men" and that they don't have the right intellectual capacity to understand it either to its fullest or to get the main point from it. Therefore they shouldn't waste their time on it because maybe they will totally misunderdstand it which is really bad. it is better to get all chumash, halacha and tenach down pat before "wasting" your time.

btw who said I was snag? I just think Moshiach should come when Hashem thinks is best!

how about Rabbi Akiva Eiger on Chumash? better example?
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Unread 06-10-2003, 11:24 PM   #58
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Nata-

Can you give a source that says that learning Gemara is assur for women because they don't have the right intellectual capacity? And can you give a source for this "refuah for men" business?

I personally am getting quite frustrated reading statements that have absolutely no source in halacha. Would you please substantiate some of your statements with sources? (If you can't find them yourself because it is a "waste of time" for you as a female, then maybe you should ask your father or brother to tell you the sources and you can post them here.)

Moshiach now...
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Unread 06-11-2003, 06:38 AM   #59
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chabadnika, the source for the issur can be found at the end of Perek Aleph of the Rambam's Hilchos Talmud Torah.

The source for the refuah statement is in Kiddushin, daf 29 or 30.

Let's not refuse to acknowledge that our Rebbe's statement was a chiddush, and that anything that preceded it has "no source in halacha"! Read the thread!
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Unread 06-11-2003, 07:43 AM   #60
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I have learned that Rambam (differently, but in any event)... and also the one that says that women get s'char for any learning they do, not on the same level as men because of metzuveh v'oseh...but I'm not sure that Rambam is supposed to be taken 100% as "pshat", there's a lot there.

Will look up the source in Kiddushin B"N and let you know what I come up with.

And regarding the Rebbe's chiddush, I'm not arguing that it's not a chiddush-it's one that I'm very proud of and benefit from immensely, B"H-but on the other hand chiddush or not, it's something the Rebbe said, which has not seemed to find itself poking its head above the surface in this part of the discussion. Question: do we differentiate in the way we as chassidim treat the Rebbe's chiddushim and those words of the Rebbe that aren't considered "chiddushim"?

(I may have to come back to clarify this post's coherence, apologies in advance because of tiredness and lack of source accessibility, not because of my da'as kala. )
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Unread 06-15-2003, 04:08 PM   #61
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chassidish, thank you. i have never heard any lubuvitcher explane the role of wwomen in such a positive yet real manner. i have a question to ask though bc i was asked this and was unable to give an answer. why cant women study smicha? ok, i understand whyv they cant do the shul services etc.. but why cant they study the laws and get their smicha like men do and be part of the beth din or be able to pasken? whats the difference between a man paskenin and a women paskenin?
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Unread 06-15-2003, 04:27 PM   #62
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uh...quest.................i think that's taking it a bit far.
that's not a women's job. women have their own role and i think there's a whole thread about it somewhere too.
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Unread 06-15-2003, 04:32 PM   #63
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where and why is that taking it to far? if it is fine ill understand when im given reasons
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Unread 06-16-2003, 10:23 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest
chassidish, thank you. i have never heard any lubuvitcher explane the role of wwomen in such a positive yet real manner. i have a question to ask though bc i was asked this and was unable to give an answer. why cant women study smicha? ok, i understand whyv they cant do the shul services etc.. but why cant they study the laws and get their smicha like men do and be part of the beth din or be able to pasken? whats the difference between a man paskenin and a women paskenin?
Torah has two parts, Nigleh, or Torah Law, and Nistar, the knowledge of G-d. Each of these has subdivisions, but this general division will do for now.

These two parts of Torah correspond to the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life. Torah Law is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, to know what is permitted and what is forbidden, etc. The knowledge of G-d is the Tree of Life.

These two "trees" also correspond to the sfiros of daas and binah. Daas (usually [mis]translated as knowledge) is the faculty of subjective opinion--how you feel about something, how you connect to it. Binah (understanding, comprehension) is the faculty of objective analysis.

Men have stronger daas and women have stronger binah. This gives men an advantage in Torah Law and women an advantage in Chassidus.

In order to a Posek or Rav one needs to have a strong personal opinion and feel for the spirit of the law. It is impossible to right instructions for every situation that comes up, and the difference between one and the other can be quite subtle. A Rav has to discern the path he feels is best for the situation in his times, his place, and his people. He also has to be firm in his opinion, especially to be a judge, so that opposing arguments will not easily sway his judgement. This is true even if he cannot explain or bring proof for his opinion and judgement, it is just his feeling.

Another aspect of daas, is focus. Men can become more strongly fixed to the theory and their own thoughts and feelings on the matter, totally overlooking the feelings of the parties involved. This is important, because Torah Law requires subjectivity in the theory and impartiality to the effects.

Women have more attention to detail, allowing them to better see the essence of a thing. This attention to detail is the source of "women's intuition." This gives women an advantage in the study of Chassidus. For when it comes to studying creation to see G-d's greatness and beauty, to hear G-d's message as is, without trying to impose our interpretations, for this binah (attention to detail) is the main thing. This is the idea of learning Torah "Lishma" (for its name), meaning how the Torah is G-d's name, revealing Him to us. This is when a person studies the Torah not to know what to do or to refine himself, rather just to know G-d. This type of study leaves no room for personal feelings and subjective interpretation, which can give rise to false imaginations and illusions of holiness and closeness to G-d.

This second type of study represents complete nullification to G-d, the perfection of the Messianic Era, the time of the Tree of Life. This nullification also brings about the eternal life of the Resurrection, thus The Tree of "Life."

During exile the main objective in Torah study was to refine the evil in the world, and so the study of Nigleh was central and men were dominant. This was amplified by the sin of the Tree of Knowledge. If Adam and Chava had eaten from the Tree of Life first, then even the study of the revealed part of Torah would have been according to the inner part of Torah. This made things worse for both man and women, as apparent from their punishments: Man would get bread by the sweat of his brow--through hard work, and woman would be subservient to man. This was all because their sin made knowledge dominant. This made the external effect of Torah on man and the world all the more important, for they needed to be refined. This refinement, however, is only a preparation for the Tree of Life.

So the answer to this question is the same as the last one: men are better at the external effect of Torah, imposing it on the world to refine it. However, when it comes to appreciating the essence of the Torah--how it is the G-d's name--and revealing this essential connection to G-d in everything, women are dominant. This is why women will be dominant in the time of Moshiach, and this is why now, as we enter the time of Moshiach, the women are leaving their past subservience and the world is becoming more feminine in general.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 04:53 AM   #65
Yankel Nosson
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There is another element, which I actually happened to hear in a shiur yesterday.

The question raised in the course of the shiur (on an unrelated topic) was why women aren't encouraged to study gemara. The response was as follows:

A woman's strength comes from Bina, as stated above by chassidus. Bina is related to boneh, building. A woman's power is one of building--building babies, building relationships, building families. The feminine power is one of connection and integration. The purpose of gemara (esp. Bavli) is one of birur and separation, identifying and separating out truth from falsehood coldly and objectively. Generally speaking, women are not as well-suited to it, and there is a danger that it will negatively impact her natural inclination to building and integration.

This is related to why women are not kosher eidim (their strength in connection and empathy for a situation is at the expense of objectivity) and why they don't drink havdala wine (havdala being about separating out and drawing distinctions).
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Unread 06-17-2003, 08:53 AM   #66
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wow very interesting. i have never heard any of that stuff before and it makes a lot of sense now. thanks chassidus foryour lengthy explanation which really explained it all to me and thanks yankel for your imput.
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Unread 06-17-2003, 11:50 AM   #67
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Although these ideas are not unfamiliar to me, I find certain points in the analysis confusing. Maybe it's the wording.
Because if you would ask me (or anyone) what quality I think is most necessary to understanding Law, I would say, "being able to objectively analyze it." Subjective opinion is just that, subjective. It's not about defining the law, what is and isn't permissible, what is and isn't kosher or tahor. A rav has to objectively analyze a situation and coldly assess the facts and then determine its status. Subjective opinion is personal, and can be wishy-washy, today I feel like this, tomorrow like that. Hardly the qualities one would expect in a posek!
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Unread 06-17-2003, 11:54 AM   #68
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I don't see the problem.

Ohh...you were referring to chassidus' use of the term "objective".
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Unread 06-18-2003, 01:33 AM   #69
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Jude,

If cold analysis and book learning could solve the case, you wouldn't need a posek. The specialty of a posek is the ability to read between the lines and find the ruling for a case never mentioned anywhere. He also has to make judgement calls that are not based on the letter of the law. This requires firm judgement and consistency. Men tend to become fixed firmly to a single approach and view. Even though other approaches are also true, leadership requires firm resolve and consistent judgement, not appreciation of truth. Women will better appreciate the truth of both sides, thus making it harder to firmly choose one.

One thing about the subjectivity--the posek needs to be permeated with Torah so that his feelings are the Torah's feelings. He also has to be able to bring sources and logic to support his ruling. Nonetheless, there is always a logic that dictates the opposite.

The same with Jewish kings. They need to lead everyone strongly in a single direction; the one that they feel is best for the situation. There can be valid points against this line of action, but leadership ultimately requires blind focus. There is not always time to analyze. Once a line of action is chosen, the validity of all others must be forgotten. Although, again, the king is supposed to represent the ultimate nullification to G-d's will. His ego is supposed to become G-d's ego. Thus his judgement will be correct.

And, quest, you're welcome. I'm glad to help.
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Unread 06-18-2003, 07:35 PM   #70
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One thing about the subjectivity--the posek needs to be permeated with Torah so that his feelings are the Torah's feelings. He also has to be able to bring sources and logic to support his ruling. Nonetheless, there is always a logic that dictates the opposite.
so when different poskim have opposite views, are you saying that one of their views is not based on "Torah's feelings," or are BOTH of them reflecting Torah?

"always" a logic that dictates the opposite?
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Unread 06-18-2003, 09:42 PM   #71
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Come on Jude, you know about "eilu v'eilu"
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Unread 06-18-2003, 11:37 PM   #72
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Originally posted by Jude
so when different poskim have opposite views, are you saying that one of their views is not based on "Torah's feelings," or are BOTH of them reflecting Torah?
Yes, both of them represent Torah's feelings--that is, if they are true poskim, permeated with Torah.

It is like many people coming to great the king in his palace from all different parts of the country. The goal of everyone is the same, and the map for everyone is the same, but when reading the map one will say go north and one will say go south. Both describe the shortest and quickest way to get to the palace, yet their directions are opposite.

Only that in spiritual matters it is not like physical space. Therefore, once the majority rules it gives everyone the ability to follow that path.

Quote:
"always" a logic that dictates the opposite?
Yes, were it not that the Torah showed us how to arbitrate between logical arguments, implanting in man an intellectual leaning, we would not be able to arrive at any firm conclusion. This is why morals and ethics are impossible without the Torah, for logic must be predicated by a point of truth, a reference point to judge things upon.

For example, a mass murderer is on trial, and the evidence against him is unshakable. The defense resolves to a mercy plea: This man's parents were on crack! His father figures were drug lords and gang leaders! He is a victim! This man should be pitied not punished!

This is obviously and argument for, at least, a lighter sentence, logic dictating mercy.

However, the prosecutor can counter: For the court's glory! Don't you see? This is the very reason I press for the death penalty! This man in rotten to his core! He was bad since his childhood. Redemption is impossible. The only answer, and true kindness, is to end his evil existence!

Which side of the argument would you subscribe to? Is this based on a logical consideration or an intangible, subjective leaning?

Similarly, there is an argument in (the commentaries to) Tractate Makkos about someone that shoots an arrow, intending to hit a target, but accidentally hitting and killing a person. Everyone agrees that this person is exempt from exile to a city of refuge. One side stipulates that this is close to a completely unavoidable accident and so he is exempt. The other side stipulates that this is close to intentional murder, a case of severe negligence, and thus exile is not good enough for him. It simply won't help.

Bring me logical proof for either of these lines of reasoning. This is a matter of personal feeling--how responsible do you feel the person is for this accident.

Logic is only as good as the axioms you build it on, and if people are part of the system, variation is inevitable. (I don't mean that people invent the system, I mean that the system is evaluating a human factor, something volatile and ever changing.)

Just to clarify, I am not saying that paskening is completely subjective--that is, that the Rabbis make it up or something, G-d forbid. Rather, a proper analysis of the Torah yields the spirit of the Law. Without this, questions will continuously crop up. So analyzing the words of Torah points the way to this understanding and indeed demands it.
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Unread 06-19-2003, 03:37 AM   #73
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Back to the subject at hand - i don't see either why women need to learn gemoro..i think it's more of a psychological equality that they think they've achieved...but i don't see why someone should raise their eyebrows at a girl who learns haskolo of chassidus and really tifereh maamorim...i saw that a few days ago...and i was shocked...i mean...aren't women supposed to learn pnimiyus hatorah? and if someone has already gone thru likutei diburim adn sichos (ok most women aren't up tot hat yet...) why should anyone be shocked that they would move onto bigger and better and deeper htings?
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Unread 06-19-2003, 05:25 AM   #74
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Quote:
...
This is a matter of personal feeling--how responsible do you feel the person is for this accident.
...
Well-written post, chassidus, but I disagree with your premise.

The different paths in Torah are explained better by your first mashal--a person from the north will say "South," and vice-versa. It is not personal opinion, it is the objective truth from where he stands.

In your example of the accidental murderer, these do not represent personal opinions. These represent the point of view from the side of chesed, and the side of din. In the North they are saying "go South" and vice versa.

I think you have the objectivity/subjectivity thing wrong in your otherwise clear and lucid posts.
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Unread 06-19-2003, 04:17 PM   #75
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In your example of the accidental murderer, these do not represent personal opinions. These represent the point of view from the side of chesed, and the side of din.
I think they are personal opinions, which are based on whether one is sourced in chesed or din.

re Eilu V'eilu - see thread on it

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I think you have the objectivity/subjectivity thing wrong in your otherwise clear and lucid posts.
I, for one, don't get it
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