Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Chinuch

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 09-03-2009, 05:44 PM   #26
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
I'm not so sure that we can extract kavonos from a discussion on davening properly.
My apologies. I somehow thought the discussion was about davvening בעבודה ובאריכות. If the discussion was about kavanos (not ... kavono), you are correct.

The story in LD is hardly a story that illustrates his davvening in "public" (besides the fact that it was before the נשיאות). But whatever.

Noah - learn to laugh a little.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-03-2009, 06:24 PM   #27
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
My apologies. I somehow thought the discussion was about davvening בעבודה ובאריכות. If the discussion was about kavanos (not ... kavono), you are correct.

The story in LD is hardly a story that illustrates his davvening in "public" (besides the fact that it was before the נשיאות). But whatever.

.
The title of the thread is "Motivating and Educating our children to daven properly". The questions are what exactly is proper? and assuming that davening b'avoda is proper, how do we teach that when there are so many examples of people who are not doing that, but are daveing with a minyan.

I assume that your intention with kavanos would be the Kabolistic kind?
My intention was the basic, da lefne me atoh omaid, etc.

As far as you know, did the other Rebeim daven with the minyan on a regular basis?
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-03-2009, 07:10 PM   #28
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
[quote=Fesoy;157836 how do we teach that when there are so many examples of people who are not doing that, but are daveing with a minyan.[/quote]Halevai, like I wrote above.
Quote:
I assume that your intention with kavanos would be the Kabolistic kind?
When one mentions "he had all the kavonos" in relation to the Rebbe, that is my assumption, which is why I wrote it is a different discussion.

Last edited by Torah613; 09-05-2009 at 08:27 PM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-04-2009, 10:02 AM   #29
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
The Rebbe also stayed up every night until four in the morning or later, and barely slept. The Rebbe also barely ate, and often fasted. Will you learn from those things too?
Absolutely. The Rebbe's ability to push himself so hard, so unwaveringly, to accomplish his objectives is a tremendous inspiration to me and every shliach I have ever met.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-04-2009, 05:26 PM   #30
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Quote:
The title of the thread is "Motivating and Educating our children to daven properly". The questions are what exactly is proper? and assuming that davening b'avoda is proper, how do we teach that when there are so many examples of people who are not doing that, but are daveing with a minyan.
It's simple. Whoever wants to influence others to do so has to do so himself, and then the hashpo'o will stand a good chance of accomplishing something, just as with any hashpo'o.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Absolutely. The Rebbe's ability to push himself so hard, so unwaveringly, to accomplish his objectives is a tremendous inspiration to me and every shliach I have ever met.
Yes, of course I agree, but to literally copy the Rebbe's lifestyle is not healthy for anoshim k'erkeinu. That's all I meant to say.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-04-2009, 05:52 PM   #31
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Yes, of course I agree, but to literally copy the Rebbe's lifestyle is not healthy for anoshim k'erkeinu. That's all I meant to say.
Did you mean that copying the Rebbe's davening with the minyan is not for us to copy? That was the context of your quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
As for following the Rebbe's example, the Rebbe also davvened Mincha many times long after shekia. Are we to follow that too?
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-06-2009, 10:53 PM   #32
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
I don't see what's so complicated. Based on the Rebbe's firm encouragement of those who engaged in arichus hatefilla, the Rebbe wanted through his example to strengthen davenen with a minyan for those who are struggling with it, not ch"v to weaken arichus hatefilla for those who are holding by it. End of discussion.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-06-2009, 11:34 PM   #33
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I don't see what's so complicated. Based on the Rebbe's firm encouragement of those who engaged in arichus hatefilla, the Rebbe wanted through his example to strengthen davenen with a minyan for those who are struggling with it, not ch"v to weaken arichus hatefilla for those who are holding by it. End of discussion.
I think that I can figure out what you mean but your sentence "Based on the Rebbe's firm encouragement of those who engaged in arichus hatefilla" wasn't completed.

It is my understanding that the Rebbe wanted people to do the preparations for tefilla before the minyan started so they could start their davening with the minyan. If in the course of the davening they got so involved that the davening went longer, it was fine/ (or more than fine?).
IIRC, the Rebbe gave instructions for people who knew they were going to take a long time, to start early so they could daven S"E with the minyan.
I don't think davening with the minyan was such a b'diavad matter, for people who were struggling with davening b'arichus.
I would say that davening b'tzibur is a big thing. See the mimor Basi Ligani.
The HaYom Yom (paraphrased) tells us that the Yetzer Horah can wear a kapata and tell us to do holy things, just at the wrong time.

I see people on occasion come late to shul (myself included) and learn a mimor before daveing and take a long time to daven. Perhaps, at that point the thing to do would be to daven with the minyan and then do tshuva so the next time the preparations would start on time, ahead of the minyan.

This is part of the discussion of what is proper davening and is on topic of this thread.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 07:26 AM   #34
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Kavonos and the like is a different discussion to what we are discussing here.

To throw in one more little point. We are having a valid discussion about lack of avodas hatfilla.

If there would be the the proper respect for tfilla, i.e. davvening 3 times a day with a decent minyan, no talking, walking around, a serious slow atmosphere etc etc, than one can talk about taking it to the next level. As long as those basics are lacking, there is no foundation upon which to build, and these discussions are abrocho levatolo, IMHO. [Noah - please don't shoot...].
I'm a bit confused at the train of thought here. What is arichus hatefillah? You daven long for the sake of davening long? My understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that arichus hatefillah is the effect of an avodah, not the avodah itself.

The avodah itself is thinking deeply about the davening as you say it... this means having kavanah or kavanos depending on your chosen method of hisbonenus during davening. Basically you do all of the basics that T613 mentioned as best you can, and then you start to focus on what you are saying. As you focus, you might find you spend five minutes on one chapter of tehillim or meditating on the word "Shemah" or thinking about various cholim as you say Refoeinu. After one or two of these 5 minute interludes, you're behind the minyan; after 5 or 6, your davening starts to get rather long. Pretty soon: Arichus Hatefillah.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 08:39 AM   #35
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
I trust you did not mean you are confused by my train of thought...
I am amused a bit at the (unintended) implication that the ultimate goal is to not davven with the minyan...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 10:06 AM   #36
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
I am amused a bit at the (unintended) implication that the ultimate goal is to not davven with the minyan...
Not for everyone.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 11:57 AM   #37
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
I trust you did not mean you are confused by my train of thought...
I am amused a bit at the (unintended) implication that the ultimate goal is to not davven with the minyan...
You confused me by asking what kavanos has to do with anything. Everyone else confused me by agreeing with you.

I might be missing the boat here, but I thought the only reason to have arichus hatefillah was to give yourself time to get through all of the kavanos you want to get through. What other reason would there be to daven long? What other reason would trump davening with a minyan?
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 01:21 PM   #38
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Have you learnt Kuntres Hatefillah and Kuntres HoAvoda? I highly doubt it. I find your suggestion that not davenen with a minyan in order to prepare and do hisbonenus is coming from some sort of chassidisheh yetser horo (and requiring teshuva!) highly objectionable, contrary to what the Rebbeim taught in the above Kuntreisim, and certainly not based on anything from the Rebbeim. The derech of Chabad is to encourage arichus hatefilla, even though one who does so cannot davven with the minyan. The Alter Rebbe sent spies to communities and threatened to reject any Chossid who would not do this from yechidus. All the Rebbeim screamed about the neglect of this avoda and demanded it bechol hatokef. I've linked to sources where the Rebbe too screamed about this, and demanded that Chassidim davven according to Kuntres Hatefillah and Kuntres HoAvoda.

And now we see the ultimate degeneration (nothing personal), that somim oir lechoshech, and someone can even come to say that this is ... from the yetzer hara ch"v! Yishtakach ha'dovor veloi yei'omeir. Aderaba, it's those who neglect to do so who need to provide an explanation. As for the maylah of davenen with a minyan, one can have that by mincha and mayriv.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 02:01 PM   #39
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
You confused me by asking what kavanos has to do with anything. Everyone else confused me by agreeing with you.

I might be missing the boat here, but I thought the only reason to have arichus hatefillah was to give yourself time to get through all of the kavanos you want to get through. What other reason would there be to daven long? What other reason would trump davening with a minyan?
In my (and I believe the common) terminology, "hisbonenus" and "kavonos" are not the same. "Kavonos" usually refers to davvening with kavonos of Kabbala etc., unlike when the term "davvening with kavono" is used, where it usually refers to having proper concentration. Hisbonenus in davvening is yet something else.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 05:51 PM   #40
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Have you learnt Kuntres Hatefillah and Kuntres HoAvoda? I highly doubt it. I find your suggestion that not davenen with a minyan in order to prepare and do hisbonenus is coming from some sort of chassidisheh yetser horo (and requiring teshuva!) highly objectionable, contrary to what the Rebbeim taught in the above Kuntreisim, and certainly not based on anything from the Rebbeim. The derech of Chabad is to encourage arichus hatefilla, even though one who does so cannot davven with the minyan. The Alter Rebbe sent spies to communities and threatened to reject any Chossid who would not do this from yechidus. All the Rebbeim screamed about the neglect of this avoda and demanded it bechol hatokef. I've linked to sources where the Rebbe too screamed about this, and demanded that Chassidim davven according to Kuntres Hatefillah and Kuntres HoAvoda.

And now we see the ultimate degeneration (nothing personal), that somim oir lechoshech, and someone can even come to say that this is ... from the yetzer hara ch"v! Yishtakach ha'dovor veloi yei'omeir. Aderaba, it's those who neglect to do so who need to provide an explanation. As for the maylah of davenen with a minyan, one can have that by mincha and mayriv.

It seems that you are referring to my post but, are taking what I said completely out of context. The tshuva I am referring to is when someone comes late to daven. You can take everything you learn about daveing b'arichus and do your davening with the minyan. It's not mutually exclusive as you imply. Learn a mimor by getting to shul at 7:00 AM, meditate on the mimor after you learn it and start Hodu with the minyan. If you daven slower than the minyan because you are thinking about every word you are saying, and are putting your whole self into the daveing and you aren't with them at Shemona essrey, then so be it. No reason to do tshuva in that case. However, if someone rolls into shul at 10:00 and then starts his prep, he just might want to do tshuva and get to shul earlier next time.

Where are you getting you information about the A"R sending spies and rejecting people for yechidus if they were able to daven b'aricus and instead davened with the minyan? I never heard such a chidush.
The A"R writes, (kuntress Acharon essay 9, pg. 324),"All should begin in unison, as one, word by word, not one here and another elsewhere, one mute and the other idly chatting, May G-d, protect us."
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 06:24 PM   #41
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
אג"ק סי' א: וכגון דא צריך לאודועי שבדעתי אי"ה לשלוח לכל המנינים מרגלים בסתר לידע ולהודיע כל מי שאפשר לו וכל מי שיש לו פנאי להאריך ולעיין בתפלה ומתעצל יהי' נידון בריחוק מקום להיות נדחה בשתי ידים בבואו לפה לשמוע דא"ח.

I assume this is what Noah meant, though, 1) he mentions לשמוע דא"ח, not yechidus, 2) mentions להאריך ולעיין בתפלה, and does not mention whether the issue is that they davvened with the minyan (ר"ל), or whether the issue was a fast minyan versus a slow one (like the one mentioned at the end of קונטרס אחרון, or the one mentioned in siman 1 that took an hour and a half...).

[As an aside: In a perfect world, where we all davven באריכות ובהתבוננות, what happpens to the minyan? Do we just pull out a ספר תורה for kriah (כמנהג החסידים הכי גדולים), and forget about the rest, or do we import some sn--s to make the "official" minyan?
I think I once asked this question, and got attacked...
Of course, there is the third (and obvious) option].
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-07-2009, 08:04 PM   #42
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Referring to the Sicho that Noah linked to about the Rebbe wanting us to daven the way it requires in Kuntres Avoda, and Tefillah: The Rebbe asked when was the last time we meditated for an hour or a half hour before davening.There was no mention of not davening with the minyan.

If a minyan of Chassidim would learn Chassidus for an hour, then meditate for an hour, and appoint a shaliach tzibur who would do as the A"R requested, I doubt that anyone who davened in that minyan would find their tefillah lacking. On the contrary it would be a completely different davening, uplifting and transformational. Not to mention having the maalah of the tefilah of a tzibur.

From the fact that the Rebbe davened with the minyan and from the absolute certainty that the Rebbe prepared himself for davening, I think it is clear that is an horah not only for people who aren't shaiach to being ovdim, it is a lesson for even the big ovdim and Chassidim who are bukkie in all the above mentioned kuntresim.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 01:59 AM   #43
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Quote:
the Rebbe gave instructions for people who knew they were going to take a long time, to start early so they could daven S"E with the minyan.
I have gone through the Rebbe's igros on tefilla and I have not seen this, and it contradicts the spirit of the igros that I have seen, in which the Rebbe encourages each person to davven slowly at his own pace, so I ask you to produce the source for this.
Quote:
if someone rolls into shul at 10:00 and then starts his prep, he just might want to do tshuva and get to shul earlier next time
I never said otherwise!

Thanks, Torah613, that's what I was referring to. Sorry, I should have checked it; it was to be expelled from hearing Chassidus. But the nekuda is the same.

I never said that the issue was to davven with a minyan, ch"v. But anyone who has worked on davvenen slowly at his own pace and concentrating on the meaning of the words will see that he won't be able to keep up with the minyan. Also, he may well feel that he needs more time to be misbonen on the inyan in which er kocht zich, so that he isn't able to start with the minyan either, although that would be nice when possible. And typically, those who davven baarichus know that very well, and plan lechatchileh not to davven with a minyan, but rather to hear borchu, kedusha, the kadeishim, kerias haTorah, but to davven at their own pace. This isn't a chasidishe yetser horo ch"v; aderabo, this is called taking the avoda of Chassidus seriously. This is what ovdim always did, and the Rebbe never said to do otherwise, ch"v. (Obviously this dispensation is sometimes abused, and it is clearly indefensible for people to came late, prepare little, and davven without a minyan; lo beshifteni askinon.)

As for what will happen with the minyan when everyone davvens ba'arichus, nizkeh venichye v'nireh--we'll worry about it when it happens, iy"H--halevai. I fail to see the to'eles in the question in the current shefal hamatzav R"l.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 07:30 AM   #44
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
As for what will happen with the minyan when everyone davvens ba'arichus, nizkeh venichye v'nireh--we'll worry about it when it happens, iy"H--halevai. I fail to see the to'eles in the question in the current shefal hamatzav R"l.
I hear the same answer when people ask who will be the donors if everyone goes on shlichus. Doesn't really do much for me in either context.

I think the larger point is that davening requires different types of people. There needs to be a Shliach Tzibbur (who can daven at a regular pace to control the pace of the minyan). There needs to be a group that is holding properly with the minyan to answer where needed. That foundation allows for the advantage of supporting those who are ovdim and daven long (not the same ones each day), but we can't all be ovdim - the minyan has other legitimate positions to fill.

This same explanation would apply, for example, to who we are not all farmers even though the Baal Shem Tov encouraged Jews to get into aggricultural jobs. Even though there was a clear directive to seek these jobs, and even though the Besht actually lauded the positive spiritual benefits of the jobs, nobody expected 100% of Jews to become farmers.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 08:27 AM   #45
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
As for what will happen with the minyan when everyone davvens ba'arichus, nizkeh venichye v'nireh--we'll worry about it when it happens, iy"H--halevai. I fail to see the to'eles in the question in the current shefal hamatzav R"l.
True. But it might give some insight as to what the AR etc expected as a norm for Chassidim.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 09:53 AM   #46
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I have gone through the Rebbe's igros on tefilla and I have not seen this, and it contradicts the spirit of the igros that I have seen, in which the Rebbe encourages each person to davven slowly at his own pace, so I ask you to produce the source for this.
I learned that a while ago. IIRC=If I remember correctly.
If someone can look it up, I would appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I never said otherwise!
Let's review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
The HaYom Yom (paraphrased) tells us that the Yetzer Horah can wear a kapata and tell us to do holy things, just at the wrong time.

I see people on occasion come late to shul (myself included) and learn a mimor before daveing and take a long time to daven. Perhaps, at that point the thing to do would be to daven with the minyan and then do tshuva so the next time the preparations would start on time, ahead of the minyan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I find your suggestion that not davenen with a minyan in order to prepare and do hisbonenus is coming from some sort of chassidisheh yetser horo (and requiring teshuva!) highly objectionable, contrary to what the Rebbeim taught in the above Kuntreisim, and certainly not based on anything from the Rebbeim.


And now we see the ultimate degeneration (nothing personal), that somim oir lechoshech, and someone can even come to say that this is ... from the yetzer hara ch"v! Yishtakach ha'dovor veloi yei'omeir.
I forgive your clear misunderstanding of what I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
it was to be expelled from hearing Chassidus. But the nekuda is the same.

I never said that the issue was to davven with a minyan, ch"v.
Then I misunderstood you.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 03:18 PM   #47
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
It looks like I misunderstood you, Yosef--I'm sorry.

In any case, I stand by what I said that true arichus hatefilla and davenen with a minyan in general don't go together--of course, not because of a lack of kovod for tefilla betzibbur (ch"v--one who davvens truly according to the derech of Chabad will be much more makpid to davven with a minyan by mincha and maariv), but rather because tefilla ba'arichus al pi darkeinu is even higher.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #48
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
It looks like I misunderstood you, Yosef--I'm sorry.

In any case, I stand by what I said that true arichus hatefilla and davenen with a minyan in general don't go together--of course, not because of a lack of kovod for tefilla betzibbur (ch"v--one who davvens truly according to the derech of Chabad will be much more makpid to davven with a minyan by mincha and maariv), but rather because tefilla ba'arichus al pi darkeinu is even higher.
I am glad were on the right track

Proper davening is critical every day. I use the analogy of a computer that has to re-boot in order to get its operating system and software programs up an running every morning of every day.
Shabbos in the morning is even more special because of the Kedusha of the day, the second neshama that we have, and the extra time that is available. A good davening is a great way to install even better software and improve our operating system, increase our hard drive and improve our RAM, etc.

Our computer is connected to a Network and that's where the minyan is critical. As long as our Hodus are in sync, we can take our time davening to daven properly and we will still be connected and considered as daveing with the minyan.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-08-2009, 04:04 PM   #49
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Granted, it's preferable to start with Hoidu, but if for whatever reason that would come at the expense of his hachonos of limmud and hisbonenus according to one's level, with the requisite mesinus, then as I understand, not starting with Hoidu is also legit.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How can we do a better job educating all of our children & ourselves to be Shluchim? Fesoy Chinuch 8 07-29-2009 01:04 PM
A Formal Framework For Educating Girls noahidelaws Teenagers 46 04-25-2009 10:37 PM
Im new I can cant properly pray.. batista Yiddishkeit 6 09-14-2008 12:32 AM
Educating today's generation? observer Chinuch 51 06-25-2008 07:00 AM
Understanding Maasim Properly Chabad Friend Stories about the Rabbeim and Chassidim 2 04-20-2003 07:07 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com