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Unread 10-21-2005, 01:01 AM   #1
chasidus
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No Mitzvos?

It says in the medrash (vayikra rabba parsha lamed) that corresponding to the arba minim there are four types of jews. There are jews who have torah and mitzvos, jews with only torah but not mitzvos, jews with mitzvos but not torah, and jews with no torah and no mitzvos... it says there that when we put them all together they are "mechaprim eilu al eilu" ("they each atone for each other").

1. How can there be jews with neither Torah or Mitzvos when we know that even poishei Yisroel mlei'im mitzvos k'rimon?

2. If a jew did manage to sink to such a low state, then why would we want to bind him together to us. Shouldn't we want to distance ourselves from such reshoim like it says in Sh"A "moridin v'ain maalin"?

3. From the loshon of "machprin eilu al eilu" it would seem that even these "Arovos" who have no Torah or Mitzvos are mechaper or maaleh the other minim? What do they have to add?

any ideas?

thanks,
chasidus
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Unread 10-21-2005, 01:50 AM   #2
RebLazer
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The Yefas Toar asks your first question and gives two answers.
1. [It doesn't say that even Jewish "sinners" are full of mitzvos as a pomegranate, but that the "reikanim"--the vacuous, the empty, Jews--are full of mitzvos.] Although they don't observe [positive] mitzvos, these fellows avoid committing sin. [Therefore, their avoidance of transgressing negative prohibitions is regarded as merits; thus, they are full of "miztvos," etc.]
2. Although they possess mitzvos, they lack "mitzvos yeseiros," and "zeheeros be'miztvos." (This explanation dovetails well with the Rebbe's explanation of the Lulav, viz., that naturally Lulav- Jews possess basic mitzvah observance,. etc.)

In light of his answer(s) to your first question, your second question is also resolved.

Regarding the third difficulty you raise, le'churah you can apply the Radal's answer to another question on this Midrash (i.e., But we don't actually tie all four species together--only three!) See there for his answer.

Last edited by RebLazer; 10-21-2005 at 01:53 AM.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 03:13 AM   #3
chasidus
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1. The loshon (in Chagigah 27a) is " " (Jewish sinners), i.e. they are oiver on negative mitzvos.

2. Your second answer (#2 above) falls away in light of what I just wrote.

3. The Radal's answer is very nice but it doesn't answer my third question at all. What exactly does the "Arovo Jew" add or mechaper on the other "minim"?
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Unread 10-21-2005, 10:09 AM   #4
Torah613
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I would refer you to LS v 29 p 223-4 and to how he explains this Midrash there. I believe that woukd resolve your problem.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 11:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasidus
1. The loshon (in Chagigah 27a) is "פושעי ישראל" (Jewish sinners), i.e. they are oiver on negative mitzvos.
True. That is the lashon, but from the continuation there it is clear that we are not talking about actual poshim, but reikanim. See there.
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Originally Posted by chasidus
3. The Radal's answer is very nice but it doesn't answer my third question at all. What exactly does the "Arovo Jew" add or mechaper on the other "minim"?
To the question the Radal poses (see supra), he answers: Lav Davka. Similarly, we could apply his answer to your question. The Midrash doesn't mean to impy that each and every group atones for a deficiency of another group.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 03:30 PM   #6
chasidus
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1.Look in Tos' there, you will see that we are talking about are people who there only zchus is that they werent "boel a kutis or moshech there orlah".Clearly the lashon poishim is ke'pshuto.

2.What the radal is answering is lav davka yukashru kulam be'agudah achas. My question was on "michaprim ailu al ailu". I dont see how one lav davka will apply to the other as be'pastus the only one that is being michaper is the esrog on the rest.
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Unread 10-22-2005, 09:42 PM   #7
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1. As you probably know, the Yefas Toar is not obligated to subscribe to Tos.'s interpretation. Accordingly, the question you asked (which, as mentioned, the YT also asks), is resolved on the basis of a different definition of a "poishai'ah." Naturally, the difficulty remains unresolved according to Tos.' definition.
2. When the Midrash says "michaprim ailu al ailu," the question is whether the atonement is reciprocal. (Be'pashtus not, but according to the Rebbe's explanation, referenced earlier by T613, the "atonement" is indeed fully reciprocal.)
According to the Radal, certain expressions in the Midrash are not intended to be precise in terms of all possible connotations. Thus the aravos need not necessarily be atoning for any other species (just as no other species is atoning for the esrog).
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Unread 10-22-2005, 10:17 PM   #8
chasidus
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My point in "1." was like you said that according to Tos' pirush(and according to my understanding the way chassidus brings it down) it is not answred.

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According to the Radal, certain expressions in the Midrash are not intended to be precise in terms of all possible connotations. Thus the aravos need not necessarily be atoning for any other species (just as no other species is atoning for the esrog).
You cant just say that it is lav davka......why would the medresh need to say that bichlal let it just say that the esrog is michaper on the rest.
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Unread 10-22-2005, 10:20 PM   #9
Torah613
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Did anyone look up the reference I cited? (Just idle curiousity on my part).
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Unread 10-22-2005, 10:35 PM   #10
RebLazer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Did anyone look up the reference I cited? (Just idle curiousity on my part).
If I qualify as "anyone", and if you read my earlier post in which your reference was mentioned , your idle curiosity would have been satiated.
Indeed, I agree that on the basis of the Rebbe's explanation there, the questions are all beautifully resolved.
(I was harping on the YT and the Radal, simply to demonstrate the importance of always checking the commentators--offen ort--when confronted with a question--especially an obvious one.)
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Unread 10-22-2005, 10:52 PM   #11
Torah613
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Sorry, i actually missed that.
[Whether you qualify as "anyone" is another question...].
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Unread 10-22-2005, 11:28 PM   #12
chasidus
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yes, T613 I looked it up.....thanks alot for your reference it was very helpfull.

(I was thinking that you may also be able to say another pshat based on the end of the sicha in chelek daled....He seems to say that the arava is a jew who's avodah is that of b'chol drachecha di'aihu. i.e neither torah or mitzvos....)

according to the sicha in chelek 29 what would the lashon of the medresh "li'abdan ee efsher" mean? If it is the avodah of emuna pshutah why would there be a havah amina to destroy them......?
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