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Unread 12-01-2003, 11:22 PM   #1
Yankel Nosson
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Mitzvos of a Tzaddik

Some time ago, a well-learned Lubavitcher Rov told me that although a tzaddik was obliged to obey halacha, a tzaddik doesn't actually need to do mitzvos.

More recently, I came across something in a ma'amer of the Rebbe (do not recall which one) which addressed the issue of the maalah of mitzvos vs the maalah of a Jew. Mitzvos are higher than a Jew (and therefore doing mitzvos contributes something to him) when he is on a certain level, but when he acheives a higher level, he becomes greater than mitzvos and it turns around that he (the Jew) contributes to the mitzvah.

Then there is the Ramban's position that doing mitzvos outside of Eretz Yisroel is really just to keep one in practice, so to speak, until he returns to the land.

Perhaps one of the more eloquent members of ChabadTalk can wax poetic on this subject.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 11:25 PM   #2
iamachassid
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more eloquent or more opinionated?
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Unread 12-01-2003, 11:27 PM   #3
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Re: Mitzvos of a Tzaddik

Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson
Some time ago, a well-learned Lubavitcher Rov told me that although a tzaddik was obliged to obey halacha, a tzaddik doesn't actually need to do mitzvos.
I don't understand: Obliged to obey halocho, but doesn't have to do mitzvos? Makes no sense.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 11:38 PM   #4
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I was medayek on the language: he is obligated by halacha like any Jew to perform the mitzvos (according to this Rov), but he does not need to them. In other words, he must do them, but they don't do anything for him. You and I need to do mitzvos (ki hem chayeinu...), but the tzaddik does not have that need.

He used Rashbi as an example, that while the Rashbi was in the cave for 13 years he didn't perform most mitzvos but he didn't have any chisaron from it.
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Unread 12-01-2003, 11:48 PM   #5
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Because halachakly he wasn't obligated.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 08:46 AM   #6
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That's fine, but even if a person is patur from a mitzvah, it is not the same as actually doing the mitzvah. There is a chisaron. What he seems to be saying is that this chisaron doesn't exist by a tzaddik. Don't argue with me, I'm only reporting what this Rov said.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 10:44 AM   #7
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The Alter Rebbe, in Likutei Torah, describes a unique kind of tzadik, who even as he exists down here in the physical world, is totally immersed in G-dliness. He is capable of connecting to and actually experiencing an infinite revelation of Hashem without the medium of physical mitzvos. As an example, he cites R' Shimon bar Yochai.

The Tzemach Tzedek, in a note on his personal copy of Likutei Torah, wrote that this was also true of the Besht. Furthermore, the Rebbe once added in a discourse that this is true of all who filled the position of the Besht, including nasi doreinu.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 11:11 AM   #8
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The previous post has a few technical mistakes.

The addition of the Besht does not originate with the Tzemach Tzedek. To the contrary, the Alter Rebbe said it in the original Ma'amar, and the Tzemach Tzedek TOOK IT OUT from the printed version of the Likutei Torah (probably for the obvious reason that it may be misinterpeted as Sabbateanism). The Rashab, in his comments on his Likyutei Torah, added it (from the original Ma'amar of the Alter Rebbe).

Also, this is only in a case when Halachikally there is no obligation to do the mittzvah due to a Ones [Like Rashbi in the cave].

Last edited by rebayzl; 12-02-2003 at 09:15 PM.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 11:59 AM   #9
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Gives an interesting perspective on post-Kof Zayin Adar
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Unread 12-02-2003, 12:02 PM   #10
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Great point, stwill!
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Unread 12-02-2003, 03:04 PM   #11
Torah613
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Specific reference, please.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 03:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
Specific reference, please.
What do you mean?
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Unread 12-02-2003, 03:55 PM   #13
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daf in Likutei Torah......page in which volume of Mamarim Alte Rebbe Tav Kuf......??

Quote:
He used Rashbi as an example, that while the Rashbi was in the cave for 13 years he didn't perform most mitzvos but he didn't have any chisaron from it.
saw in Hemishe publication shalia if he made kiddush on carob
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Unread 12-02-2003, 04:00 PM   #14
rebayzl
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Likutei Toarh Shemini the first page. Look in Haoros at end of Likutei Torah for all the references.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 05:15 PM   #15
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R' Eli' Matisov, noted editor mamorim and general erudite scholar, once remarked in one of his writings, that he thinks that the TZemach Tzedek omitted the Besht from the Maamer, so not to inflame the misnagdim, that Chasidos believes that the Behst didint need Mitzvos.

I agree with his theory.
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Unread 12-02-2003, 09:19 PM   #16
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Isnt that what I said?
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Unread 12-03-2003, 10:15 AM   #17
Jude
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got some assistance re post #8

The Rebbe Rashab in his glosses to LT (18b in hosafos) cites as the source Ksav Yad Kodsho. The Rebbe writes there that any reference to KYK, refers to the Tzemach Tzedek. Additionally, in the maamar "Livyoson Zeh" 5712 (Sefer HaMaamorim 5712 - p. 210), the Rebbe quotes this as a Hago'oh of the Tzemach Tzedek on the maamar of the Alter Rebbe.

Quote:
Also, this is only in a case when Halachikally there is no obligation to do the mittzvah due to a Ones [Like Rashbi in the cave].
Although it is true that a complete Tzaddik is obligated to do all the Mitzvos when there is no onnes [like Rashbi in the cave], he does not need this to effect his own personal connection to Hashem, as he is completely submerged in his divine Source, and is able to accomplish far more through his spiritual service (see LT there). Instead, his physical performance of Mitzvos (primarily) serves a higher purpose - see Tanya, end of ch. 10.
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Unread 12-03-2003, 10:24 AM   #18
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But of course the original Ma'amar of the Alter Rebbe in Manuscript has the Besht there.
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Unread 12-03-2003, 10:52 AM   #19
Jude
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Quote:
(probably for the obvious reason that it may be misinterpeted as Sabbateanism).
you had originally written that it was because of reactions of misnagdim - is the edited comment a clarification of your original post or something different?

was this a chidush of the Alter Rebbe, to say that it wasn't merely that Rashbi was an onus, but that in any case, he didn't need mitzvos to connect him with G-d? Is there any earlier source that says this?
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Unread 12-03-2003, 11:03 AM   #20
masbir
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Yes you said it, but he said it first.

I am not so sure Sabbateanism was the isuue than he wouldnt have publishe dthe whol mammer, but in general another attack against Chasidos that the Besht didnt do Mitzvos.

As Far as I know I didnt see yet this idea preceeding Chasidim. And its a tremendous Chidush.

And how does it work with what says in Tanya about also a Tzadik Gomor needs Mitzvos since he is a Yesh mi Sheoev.

And you cant answer that wehn he is a onos ONLY then he doesnt need Mitzvos. since whats the difference, also then he is only a "Yesh mi Sheohev"?

So you have to say that Rashbi Arizal Balshemtov are in a totally different catogory and dont have any have "yesh", see however T.O. Breishis that those 3 are less than Adam Harishon, so, also they have some Metzious.
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Unread 12-03-2003, 11:30 AM   #21
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The advantage of Kiyum Mitzvoth over "Yesh Mi SheOhev" applies only when the Mitzvah is an Obligation (then you perform Rotzon Hashem). In case of Ones this is irrelevant.

the Ma'amar Liveyatan in LT is talking about the "Lower" divine energy that relates to mitzvoth, wich is missing even in an Onus situation. So here comes the concept that Tzadikim do not really need THAT particular energy.

[Matusof is right. I just think that it does realte to the issue I brought up].
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Unread 12-03-2003, 01:40 PM   #22
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
got some assistance re post #8

Although it is true that a complete Tzaddik is obligated to do all the Mitzvos when there is no onnes [like Rashbi in the cave], he does not need this to effect his own personal connection to Hashem, as he is completely submerged in his divine Source, and is able to accomplish far more through his spiritual service (see LT there). Instead, his physical performance of Mitzvos (primarily) serves a higher purpose - see Tanya, end of ch. 10.
Answers the intial questions. Shkoyach.
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Unread 12-03-2003, 04:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
The advantage of Kiyum Mitzvoth over "Yesh Mi SheOhev" applies only when the Mitzvah is an Obligation (then you perform Rotzon Hashem). In case of Ones this is irrelevant
I dont get it? Is he a yesh mi seohoev or isnt he?
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Unread 12-03-2003, 06:42 PM   #24
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You think that when one does a mitzvah and he is Anus (not Mechuyav), does he fulfill Hashem's will?
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Unread 12-03-2003, 08:39 PM   #25
masbir
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No.

Onus Rachmonei patrei, the Maamer wants to explain how come that Rsahbi was prevented to do Mitzovs, Yes, we know onus Rachmana Patrei, but "Keman deaved lo Omrinon? (if by accident , the compassionate Torah exempts, but its not as if it was done).

Comes This the maamer and says, that really Rashbi doesnt need the whole structure of Mitzvos, so by him it desnt matter.

On this I am asking, how do we reconcile this notion with the notion the AR writes in Tanya that no level of Love of hashem, even Ahahava Betanugim, can replace the ultimate Bittle that doing a Mitzva does? So, is that great mytical bound sufficant?

I know that then Rashbi was allowed not to do Mitzvos, since he was an onus, but how do we say that its "Keman deovid" when doing a Mitzvah is way beyond any Ahavas Hashem?

We must therfore say that Rashbi, Ari, Besht are on a totally different plane, sui generis, on this I asked we see from the maamwer in T.O. Breishis that even they were not completely botek since Adam was bigger then them, so the should still need Mitzvos.

BTW I dont think that Tanya Cha. 10 has anything to do with Mitzvos per se, which is rooted in doing Ratzon hashem. Also the Tzadik who doesnt need Torah Umitzvos to satiate him, and does itin the highest level, only Leshem Yichud Kudhu Breichu which the AR discusses in the end of Chap. 40 and chap, 45, he is nevertheles is a Yesh mi Seohev
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