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Unread 04-13-2005, 04:07 PM   #1
calmsoul
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Trimming the beard

Hi

I would like to know what lubavitch view on bochurim triming thier beards.

Years ago it was very rare you heard of boys trimming and in the odd accasion you did, it meant the boy was extremly modern etc, nowdays its like you could still be a reguler bocher, frum etc but trim?

I'm a bit confused on the whole subject. I've always said I dont want a husband who touches { trims} his beard but now, I'm not so sure anymore. Does it really mean the bocher is very modern if they trim? Is it becoming a accepted thing?. Can a boy still be a frum, well balanced and have good values but still trim?

Anyone who can shed some light here would be really appreciated
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Unread 04-13-2005, 04:49 PM   #2
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Are you talking about "frum" or "chassidish"?
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Unread 04-13-2005, 04:53 PM   #3
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Frum. A mentch. Good question, though in this mixed up lubavitch world, you would find plenty people who would trim and still call themselfs very chassidish, claiming that one has nothing to do with the other, but thats a different subject completly.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 05:27 PM   #4
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A "real" Chassid will never "touch" his beard. I mean from a outside-of-Halacha viewpoint you see all these great Rabbonim who I'm sure had a choice to shave their beard or not and chose not to, so obviously we shouldn't either, whether for Kabbalistic reasons or what-ever.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 07:28 PM   #5
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If Chassidishkeit is not the criteria, I think one can be frum even while triming his beard (and sometimes even shaving).
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Unread 04-13-2005, 08:42 PM   #6
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That statement has to be true, because if not then the members of the Kollel here are in the wrong...

However calmsoul is reffering to Lubavitchers, no?
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Unread 04-13-2005, 09:55 PM   #7
yechi770
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first of all how exactly do u define chasiddish?
also i heard/read that the rebbe would be mesadur kedushin at weddings on the condition that the chosson does not touch his beard, and the rebbe found out that one chassid trimmed his beard and after that the rebbe stopped going to weddings. could u imagine being this man?
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Unread 04-13-2005, 10:52 PM   #8
AhavasYisrael
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Eternal Joy, Vol. 1, p. 116 (Sichos In English)
Wearing A Beard

It is not necessary to belabor the point that all Jews without exception, men and women -- "Believers the children of believers" -- believe and know that G-d directs the world as a whole and the individual world of each person with individual Divine Providence.

In order for us to know how we are to conduct ourselves in our lives, G-d gave us the holy Torah, which informs us of that which we may not do throughout our entire lives. Among all these mitzvos there is also the mitzvah of wearing a beard.

(There are those who maintain that it is permitted to cut the beard; however, there are those who maintain that cutting the beard is prohibited -- among them the Tzemach Tzedek, a grandson of the Alter Rebbe, author of the Tanya and Shulchan Aruch, who states as a matter of law that according to the Torah one may not cut his beard.)

In any event, it is clear that wearing a beard and not cutting it is a mitzvah, and it shows that this is a matter of fearing G-d (Yiras Shomayim).

Since everything depends on G-d, especially matters relating to a shidduch -- the aspect of G-d's influence with regard to a shidduch being more evident than regarding other things -- and He commanded that wearing a beard and not cutting it is a mitzvah, we thus understand full well that it is literally impossible that a beard serve as an impediment to a shidduch with the person who is truly his match.

If he is under the impression that the beard is an impediment to the shidduch, [as the other person will not marry him if he wears a beard], then it is a sign that he would indeed be fortunate that such a shidduch not come to pass and that his true match will be advanced by G-d in the appropriate time, and they will lead a fortunate and joyful life in the path of Torah and Mitzvos.

(Igros Kodesh, Vol. V, p.36)
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Unread 04-13-2005, 11:03 PM   #9
Nissan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yechi770
first of all how exactly do u define chasiddish?
also i heard/read that the rebbe would be mesadur kedushin at weddings on the condition that the chosson does not touch his beard, and the rebbe found out that one chassid trimmed his beard and after that the rebbe stopped going to weddings. could u imagine being this man?
I don't know where you heard that story, but the father of a Shliach in my state was the last wedding the Rebbe did... I don't know why he stopped but that sounds a little strange...
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:09 AM   #10
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just my 2 cents worth
it all depends on the person and the reason why he is trimming.

a. if someone grew up in a neighborhood or community where ppl dont let their beard grow in general (or b. if someone has been trimming since his beard started growing)
on the other hand you have bochrim that have been behaving chasidish through-out their life and yeshiva but then one day they might come to yeshiva and as the joke goes you would thing they got their beard on sale... HALF OFF!
there are even guys who go through the whole system as chasidish chasidish etc. and then after they are done with yeshiva they will just drop it all and lose the beard. point being you gotta judge each case accordingn to the person

im not saying trimming is right but it kinda irks me when ppl make a whole big deal about trimmers but yet you have these ppl who are so called "profesional pickers" you know the guys that would go to a gemara shiur and come out with their beard falling out of their sefer, or how about those guys that sit (some even with mirrors!) picking their beard to make it look nice and getting rid of all the long or ugly hairs! oh so that is all ok right

i have yet to meet someone who trims his beard and can tell me he is chasidish, but i have met plenty of guys who have beards and think or say they are chasidish and in truth they are so full of it they stink! a beard might make you look chasidish but>>>>>>> (its amazing how some guys have no shame in walking into a bar or club with a full beard, or the guys that have full beards and yet they dont keep shabbos or kosher...)

basicly dont judge a book by its cover even thought i believe if someone is trimming he is lacking in yiras shamayim etc. hey the way i see it we are all lacking somewhere at least by him you know what the problem is!

its kinda interesting that most snags shave and trim but when it comes to sefirah they will stop, alot of chabad guys however that shave or trim when it comes to sefirah will not let the beard grow then as well, the reason the way i see it.. snags think it ok to shave in general so therefore when it comes to sefirah being that you arents allowed to cut your hair it not right to cut you beard either. chabad guys however KNOW that shaving and trimming is not allowed and know that they are doing something wrong from the begining (and well once your doing one thing wrong...)
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHdish
im not saying trimming is right but it kinda irks me when ppl make a whole big deal about trimmers but yet you have these ppl who are so called "profesional pickers" you know the guys that would go to a gemara shiur and come out with their beard falling out of their sefer, or how about those guys that sit (some even with mirrors!) picking their beard to make it look nice and getting rid of all the long or ugly hairs! oh so that is all ok right
Ok I take it you do not have a beard, because if you did you would not be so offended by "beard pickers"... I won't even attempt to go into detail...
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:28 AM   #12
CHdish
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never ASUME...

i dont think you need to know my whole story but yes i do have a beard, so please ATTEMPT to go into detail
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:42 AM   #13
Nissan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHdish
never ASUME...
Oy, too late
Quote:
i dont think you need to know my whole story but yes i do have a beard, so please ATTEMPT to go into detail
I don't really want to know your whole story (unless it is really interesting of course), but how can you possibly have a beard and not move your hand through it because it itches?

If your answer is: "I do move my hand through my beard" then you yourself pick your beard because hair may come out as you move your hand through...
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissan
but how can you possibly have a beard and not move your hand through it because it itches?

If your answer is: "I do move my hand through my beard" then you yourself pick your beard because hair may come out as you move your hand through...

um i think its kinda obvious that im not talking about that kinda beard picking, (although i most say i dont think its cool to pick out single hairs at a time and then use it for dental floss talk about respecting your beard still) im not talking about those absent-minded pickers again im talking about "profesional pickers"
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Unread 04-14-2005, 09:43 AM   #15
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Some people pick their beards out completely! Everyone's always wondering if they shaved...
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Unread 04-14-2005, 10:26 AM   #16
Nissan
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But is that Halachikly wrong?
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Unread 04-14-2005, 12:05 PM   #17
calmsoul
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I dont think I was clear when I asked the question.

I'll try to be a bit more specifid, and please only answer if you understand what I'm asking and you could relate to the question.

When a shidduch comes up and you're told about a bocher and you're told that she he trims his beard, does this autamatically interpet that the bocher is a very modern bocher?

I'm hearing more and more of reguler bochurim , not talking about the ones who hang out , talk to girls. I'm refering to the ones that arn't so into learning and are in the buisness world, more open minded, but still have strong values etc.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 01:00 PM   #18
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Whats happening here? Is it now so common for Lubavitchers to trim their beards, that this should be a question? Although I don't like to generalize, I would have to say that someone who trims there beard is going against Rebbe's teachings and it is an indication that they are willing to compromise in other areas of their Chassidishkeit/Yiddishkeit as well.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 06:11 PM   #19
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It does say something about a person

Calmsoul, you mentioned this in connection with shidduchim. While it is true what some others have said that one can have leave his beard untouched and have many un-chassidisch faults, you do have to look at superficial things like a beard on shidduchim, because bottom line you won't know the guy so well until you're married anyway. If a young man trims his beard and has been schooled in a Lubavitch yeshiva, then you know right there that this is not someone who, when told/shown that "the Rebbe says to do/not do such and such" will immediately change his behavior. I, personally, think this is one of the most important qualities to look for in a mate-not that they are perfect, but that they have a commitment to do what the Rebbe says to do. If that is important to you, stay away from well-groomed beards!!!
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Unread 04-14-2005, 11:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gyf
Whats happening here? Is it now so common for Lubavitchers to trim their beards, that this should be a question? Although I don't like to generalize, I would have to say that someone who trims there beard is going against Rebbe's teachings and it is an indication that they are willing to compromise in other areas of their Chassidishkeit/Yiddishkeit as well.
Exactly. That's my opinion too.
If a P'Tz wants to trim his beard because it "looks cool", then he might as well just eat treif because he'll "look cool".
Now OTOH, if someone has to trim for a job I don't know the Halachos but I think I heard it's okay...
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Unread 04-15-2005, 07:19 AM   #21
Torah613
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I would not exactly equate trimming ones beard to eating treif - and such equations are very dangerous.

Last edited by Torah613; 04-15-2005 at 08:48 AM.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 07:58 AM   #22
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me personally, i have been growing my beard for around 21 months and i shaved about 5 times before this, and since i have been gowing it i haven't trimmed it or touched it to cut it in any way, even though i have considered it a few times.

it was hard for me to just start to grow a beard, this is because the school i go to there is alot of peer pressure and mocking of people who don't exactly fit in, fortunately i have a good bunch of friends that view the beard as "cool" and "quirky" so thank G-d there have been very few comments made to me

on the subject of beards and shidduchim, my grandfather said to me that i have no chance of getting married with this beard but if the girl looks for a boy with a nicely trimmed beard then this isn't the girl i will be looking to marry.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 08:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I would not exactly equate trimming ones beard to eating treif - and such equations are very dangerous.
Why not?
Don't we learn that all Mitzvos and Aveiros are equal?
I was taught that the reason why the reward for sending away a mother bird is just as great as honoring your parents to show that even the smallest Mitzva is equal to other Mitzvos...

And like I said, if someone has to trim their beard for work or whatever, go ahead, but just to look cool... that's messed up.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 09:05 AM   #24
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The only thing that statements like yours accomplish is - that the fellow who touches up his beard a little now has an attitude - well now I may as well eat treif R"L.
I also fail to understand your distinction of the motivation (for work or to "look cool"), if it is assur (like eating treif) it is assur, regardless of the motivation.
I know statements like your have a nice kano'ishe ring to it, perhaps appropiate for the deep hours of a long farbrengen (where one knows not to take it too seriously...), but as a statement it is wrong, not oisgehalten, and gives room for michshol. [As an aside, IMO such attitudes and statements as yours are a strong factor in many of the issues we see in the younger generation today, namely, if one has one yetzer horo we may as well do everything as there is no difference...].
One has to be careful of their words, even on CT.

Last edited by Torah613; 04-15-2005 at 09:07 AM.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
... even on CT.
Especially on CT.
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