Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Lubavitch > Chassidus

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 01-17-2007, 07:05 PM   #1
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Malchus d'Ein Sof

My understanding is lacking:

Can someone explain how we can speak of Malchus of Ein Sof when Ein Sof is above hishtalshelus?
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2007, 08:09 PM   #2
The Eighth King
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,302
שער היחוד פרק יו"ד וי"א
The Eighth King is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2007, 08:09 PM   #3
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
There are sefiros in אוא"ס also.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2007, 10:29 PM   #4
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
דוק ותשכח בכתבי מרן שח"ו לחשוב כזאת
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-17-2007, 11:01 PM   #5
The Eighth King
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoretz View Post
דוק ותשכח בכתבי מרן שח"ו לחשוב כזאת
Context, my dear amoretz, context.
The Eighth King is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 06:21 AM   #6
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
es vent zich vu m'redt
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 08:47 AM   #7
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
עײן במ"ש ש"א ח"א פרק בית
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 09:12 AM   #8
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
what's "מ"ש"?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 09:19 AM   #9
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
what's "מ"ש"?
מבוא שערים
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #10
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
sorry, looks like I'm a bit of an amoretz in matters of Kabbolo
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2007, 11:44 AM   #11
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
sorry, looks like I'm a bit of an amoretz in matters of Kabbolo
So am I. But because in these matters it's so easy to make the gravest of errors that bear terrible consequences, I found it necessary to bring it to your attention.
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2007, 02:31 AM   #12
The Eighth King
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,302
Sorry, I don't have my מבוא שערים handy. Can you excerpt the relevant passage from your citation?

Did you learn the reference I provided, which explains the context of מלכות דא"ס (although you and YN can note what it says in פרק י"ז there ע"פ האריז"ל and then if you want, maybe say a צ"ע [which is IMHO not such a צ"ע in light of the ביאור in the פרק cited above]).
The Eighth King is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2007, 09:15 AM   #13
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Eighth King View Post
Sorry, I don't have my מבוא שערים handy. Can you excerpt the relevant passage from your citation?

Did you learn the reference I provided, which explains the context of מלכות דא"ס (although you and YN can note what it says in פרק י"ז there ע"פ האריז"ל and then if you want, maybe say a צ"ע [which is IMHO not such a צ"ע in light of the ביאור in the פרק cited above]).
Motzi Shabes, iy'H.
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-21-2007, 10:04 PM   #14
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
I hope the attached helps.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	muvosheurim.jpg
Views:	302
Size:	66.8 KB
ID:	1130  
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-21-2007, 10:41 PM   #15
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Answered your own question. Relative...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-21-2007, 10:59 PM   #16
amoretz
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Answered your own question. Relative...
Who is whose relative ?
amoretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-21-2007, 11:10 PM   #17
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Yankel to Moshe.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-08-2007, 11:48 PM   #18
FlyingAxe
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
There are sefiros in אוא"ס also.
I think it is discussed in a very good detail in the Reb Yoel Kaan's Encyclopedia, in the entry on Ohr Ein Soif (the sub-entry is called 'Ten Spheros in the OE"S').

I still don't understand how there can be spheros in something that is supposed to be absolutely poshut. In particular, I don't grasp the logic of Reb Kaan's analysis of how because the spheroes are undifferentiated and are cause of everything, they are ultimately united, and so they are "one" with each other (but then why are they called spheroes, and why are they in plural, not singluar?). I also don't understand Mittler Rebbe's argument of "obviously the ten spheros exist in Ohr Ein Soif, otherwise, where did they [the lower instances of ten spheros] come from?" (I am paraphrasing from Ch-s 10-11 in Mittler Rebbe's Shar HaYichud). What's the problem of saying that they were created ym"a from something completely singular?
FlyingAxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-09-2007, 01:23 PM   #19
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
i've been rather busy as of late. this entity, while being absolutely poshut, still has the quality of metzius, thus has the quality of osios at some level. when there are osios, there is the possibility of the existence, or should i say, formation of sefiros. the sefiros follow a pattern. thus the pattern is that of כי טבע הטוב להטיב which is something we have yet to understand, i.e. the sephiros are not inevitable, but only because it emanates from hashem, but hashem has created it in a way that it becomes inevitable.

yesh meayin is not a classical answer to everything, although the sephiros were created through yesh meayin, there is obviously a certain aspect that was not random, i.e. something of the ten sefiros (their division, their notion) which existed (if we may call it existenceמציאות, נמצא) beforehand. i hope that sheds some light on the issue.

of course, this does not touch upon the complex heiarchy of "malchus de"s" but rather a brief overview of what should be understood as basic before asking such questions.
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-09-2007, 07:09 PM   #20
The Eighth King
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,302
I too have been quite busy lately. Nevertheless, I am very dissappointed with your post Hiskashrus, and have therefore taken a minute to respond. Aside for the fact that I am having trouble even making sense of it, your bit about the Osios is wrong (see Ginas Egoz, Shaar HaHavayah, brought down in Ayin-Beis, as I recall). Moreover, there are no sefiros in Atzmus Ohr Ein Sof. The Sefiros that are referred to in Ain Sof or in Ohr Ein Sof, do not refer to the Essence, as I mentioned to FlyingAxe (with mekoros to the Rashab IIRC) in an old post.

Rather, the answer that FlyingAxe must have already seen, but not paid attention to, is found in the beginning of the very chapter of Shaar HaYichud that he refers to. There it states:

Quote:
אך מה שאמרו חכים ולא בחכמה ידיעא כו' שיש עכ"פ חלוקי מדריגות חכים מבין חסדן ורחמן כו' הכל לא מצד עצמותו רק מצד מה ששיער בעצמו בכח מה שעתיד להיות בפועל אחר הצמצום הראשון הנ"ל (וכמ"ש במק"מ בל' האריז"ל עצמו ומבואר במ"א באריכות)
This is aside for the fact that, quite simply, there are different levels in אוא"ס and tzimtzumim that preceded the "first tzimtzum".
The Eighth King is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-11-2007, 02:36 AM   #21
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus View Post
yesh meayin is not a classical answer to everything, although the sephiros were created through yesh meayin, there is obviously a certain aspect that was not random, i.e. something of the ten sefiros (their division, their notion) which existed (if we may call it existenceמציאות, נמצא) beforehand. i hope that sheds some light on the issue.
יש מאין is an answer to everything, אבער מען דארף עס פארשטיין לפי ענינו. In the case of the Sefiros we say that מהתעבות האור נעשה הכלים, from the (spiritual) thickening of the Or itself are the Keilim made. Absolute Yesh Meayin is physical matter appearing from the spiritual, everything before is לפי ערך, for the newly created level sees the previous as being Ayin. This is a very simplistic explanation, there are many more details and in some places this does not apply.
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-11-2007, 02:43 AM   #22
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
I still don't understand how there can be spheros in something that is supposed to be absolutely poshut.
More precisely: Not Sefiros Bepoel, they are Sefiros Bekoach, and Sefiros Ad Ein Sof, and klulos bemekoron, and are only noticeable after the Tzimtzum. Atzmus does not even have this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
In particular, I don't grasp the logic of Reb Kaan's analysis of how because the spheroes are undifferentiated and are cause of everything, they are ultimately united, and so they are "one" with each other (but then why are they called spheroes, and why are they in plural, not singluar?).
In other words, it is only Bekoach, and they are called Sefiros al shem ho'osid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
I also don't understand Mittler Rebbe's argument of "obviously the ten spheros exist in Ohr Ein Soif, otherwise, where did they [the lower instances of ten spheros] come from?" (I am paraphrasing from Ch-s 10-11 in Mittler Rebbe's Shar HaYichud). What's the problem of saying that they were created ym"a from something completely singular?
They can emerge Yesh Meayin (and do), but they must have a source which is Ayin relative to them - and that is Or Ein Sof.

Remember that the creation of Or Ein Sof from Atzmus is not Yesh Meayin, the example given is of a mirror, a reflection, that contains everything in the mokor. It is Ayin Meayin, or Yesh HoAmiti from Yesh HoAmiti.
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-12-2007, 10:57 PM   #23
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
Eighth:

Yes, upon reviewing my post today, I do realize that the term "Osios" may not have been the most suited (and thusly incorrect). It seems my knowledge in Chassidus is getting rusty (Although Bittul's last post serves me as a nice refresher), I can understand (and therefore cannot understand what is so cryptic in your eyes about) my post, but I do not see where I implied anything about there being Sefiros in Atzmus (Although I did imply that a Metzius has Osios, which appears to be not necessarily so).
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-12-2007, 11:16 PM   #24
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
I think the expression is that a "giluy" has oisyois, no?
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-13-2007, 01:43 PM   #25
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
whats the difference between sefiros and malachim ?
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chochmo & Malchus noahidelaws Chassidus 3 04-25-2009 07:39 PM
dvar malchus ch770 General 11 12-18-2006 08:38 PM
Anyone heard of the program Malchus in israel? calmsoul The World of Lubavitch 3 01-18-2005 07:08 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com