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Unread 09-12-2005, 07:45 AM   #1
Kapote
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Avraham, Yitzhak , Yaakov

Chesed, gevurah, tiferes... lumat zeh Ishmael, Esav and ???
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Unread 09-12-2005, 08:45 AM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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Yishmael and Esav include all 70 nations. Check mafteichos for the Mitteler Rebbe for a source.
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Unread 09-12-2005, 12:35 PM   #3
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Avraham=chessed=ain mitaso shleimah.

Yitzchak=gevurah=ain mitaso shleimah.

Yaakov=tiferes(midas emes li'Yaakov)=mitaso shleimah.

Meaning Chesed and gevurah are two extremes, and therefore not always a true avodah ( i.e it is not alwalays good to be chesed or gevurah) and because of that there was a fall-out of Yishmael and Esav. Yaakov on the other hand is Tiferes (mavriach min hakatzeh el hakatzeh) which is midas emes and therefore there was no fall out in l'umas zeh.

Last edited by chasidus; 09-12-2005 at 12:44 PM.
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Unread 09-12-2005, 12:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasidus
...l'um hazeh.
How could you compose such a cogent response, yet...??
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Unread 09-12-2005, 12:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson
How could you compose such a cogent response, yet...??
It was already edited, thanks I dont know how that got there.....
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Unread 09-13-2005, 08:40 AM   #6
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There is no Tiferes in Tohu?
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Unread 09-13-2005, 09:15 AM   #7
Yankel Nosson
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I think maybe apples and oranges are being mixed.

Esav is zayin tachtonim, but klipas nogah.
The 7 canaanite nations are chagas of the 3 klipos tmei'os.

The Yavanim would likely be the klipa of Tiferes, but I never saw it exactly, and if so would they be nogah? Although it says in Chesed L'Avraham that Yavanis, the Greek language, is not on the same level as the safos tmei'os of the 70 nations.
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Unread 09-13-2005, 01:29 PM   #8
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Did you learn this newly released maamor? http://www.lahak.org/5765/5727-41.pdf

If not, take a look.

In it, the Rebbe describes the chamor as klipa of chesed and the shor as klipa of gevurah. Yishmael, it says there, is the chamor. This is why we are forbidden from plowing the two animals together, to prevent the unification of these two klipos. Because, according to the Zohar, the unity of these two generates Amalek, who is described as a dog. Dog is kelev -- kula lev (heart). Heart is related to tiferes.

Although Amalek is described in Chassidus as the klipah of da'as, it seems that perhaps the implication here is that there is an aspect of Amalek which is related to tiferes.
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Unread 09-13-2005, 02:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapote
There is no Tiferes in Tohu?
it's discussed in hemshech tishrei 5665 (forgot where though)- .... there IS tiferes in tohu - but it's the extreme of tiferes.

A"D what the rambam says that sometimes - when a person needs to change a middah he must act to a certain extreme in order to accomplish that, but when it's only tiferes then that wouldn't be possible.

also... tiferes also has something for itself - it's A"D etzem shem havayah and chitzonius shem havaya... look in '65

but it's there....
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Unread 01-16-2013, 05:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasidus View Post
Meaning Chesed and gevurah are two extremes, and therefore not always a true avodah.
On this topic, see here.

On the topic of tiferes of kelipah, see Bnei Yissaschar, Chodesh Kislev, 2:25, which associates Yavan with tiferes of kelipah, the idolization of beauty for its own sake.
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