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Unread 11-10-2003, 10:25 AM   #51
Torah613
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The Rebbe wrote, that originally that is what he himself answered for a long time, but since there is a problem in the precise wording, therefore he looks for another pshat.
IOW, there is nothing wrong with the original pshat from the viewpoint of belief in Moshiach - because if so the Rebbe would never have assumed such a pshat in the first case. The problem with that pshat is only the wording.
Even in the final pshat, the Rebbe aceepts the Gemoro that Moshiach cannot come on certain days - just that the beggining of his coming can be every day. Ayin shom.

Last edited by Torah613; 11-10-2003 at 10:34 AM.
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Unread 11-10-2003, 11:37 AM   #52
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Torah613,

the rebbe does not say that he answered that answer for a long time. he says that he was asked the question ze mikvar which meand a long time ago. any way, the rebbe may have accepted that as an answer so that that particular nusach should make sense and perhaps it is possible to say that one is not a apikoros if one beleives like that. but as for the beleif that the rebbe himself taught us to have? thats a whole different story. bichol yom means bichol yom bipashtus. and about the shabbos and yom tov problem he is metzayen to the rambam who says that it is indeed a sofek and possibly eliyohu himself will be metaretz lekula. the second inyan in that letter is only according to the man diomar that ben dovid can not come on shabbos etc. but the rebbe already explained that according to halacha that is not the case.
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Unread 11-10-2003, 09:59 PM   #53
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"As has been explained [in the sicha referenced by Torah613], this does not mean that every day we should wait for Mashiach's ultimate coming, but that every day, we should wait expectantly for Mashiach to come on that very day."

Quite a different conclusion.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ar/15.htm#t308
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Unread 11-10-2003, 10:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
...and perhaps it is possible to say that one is not a apikoros if one beleives like that....
"Perhaps it is possible"??
YN - did you learn through that letter (not "sicha"..) that I referenced?
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Unread 11-10-2003, 10:47 PM   #55
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
YN - did you learn through that letter (not "sicha"..) that I referenced?
The quote is from Sichos In English, and it references the same page in Likkutei Sichos v.23 that you referenced. The conclusion they attribute to the Rebbe is quite different from yours.

Personally, I am not so interested in the pilpul of this matter; I just visit this thread 'cause I enjoy watching Gevurah rip into Stamayid.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 09:36 AM   #56
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Waiting For Moshiach Every Single Moment

Quote:
It is incumbent to await the coming of Moshiach every single day, and all day long... It is not enough to believe in the coming of Moshiach, but each day one must await his coming... Furthermore, it is not enough to await his coming every day, but it is to be in the manner of our prayer "We await Your salvation all day," that is, to await and expect it every day, and all day long, literally every moment!
(The Chafetz Chaim from Chizuk Emunah, and the Rebbe in numerous sichos)

Does this mean that we are supposed to strive to be consciously waiting for Moshiach at every single moment, literally? This seems hard to understand, because one cannot concentrate on two concepts at once, as is known. If one is occupied with something else, one cannot consciously be waiting for Moshiach.

Perhaps the explanation is that, like with prayer, during Shacharis the person becomes inspired with ahavas Hashem, and a "reshimu (impression/remainder) remains even afterwards, which has a positive effect on the person for the entire day. See Tanya ch. 12, towards the end.
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Unread 02-22-2004, 02:10 PM   #57
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Mishpatim 5744 unedited

There are Jews who are not bothered by the fact that they are in galus. They have everything they need, materially and spiritually – they maintain – and therefore, they don’t care if they’re still in galus! They sit quietly and peacefully, with no worries!

True, when he davens, he asks, “and our eyes should see Your return to Tziyon with compassion,” and on weekdays – he adds, “the blossom of Dovid Your servant shall quickly blossom … for Your salvation we hope all day,” and this is asked three times daily, and he certainly concentrates on what the words mean, as the Shulchan Aruch says to do, but five minutes later, he forgets all this and returns to daily life, to good and holy things of course, and with utter peace and tranquility!

How is it possible that while in galus, a Jew sits tranquil, without any worries? How can he rest on his laurels when he knows that we are in a situation of “children exiled from their Father’s table?”

The meaning of “for Your salvation we hope all day” is – not only at certain moments of the day, when he sits and thinks about the future Geula with anticipation, but this situation – “for Your salvation we hope” – is “kol ha’yom” – literally all day, and so it’s just not possible for a Jew to feel “we hope for Your salvation all day” while simultaneously sitting relaxed and in utter peace and tranquility, with no worries at all!
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Unread 02-23-2004, 05:51 AM   #58
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"Tzipsa l'ishua?" they will ask you when, after 120 years the person's neshoma arrives l'mallah. "Did you anticipate the redemption?"

We can elaborate on the meaning of this question by examining the word "tzipisa."

First, the root of "tzipisa" is "tzofeh", meaning "lookout". This is the root of the name Har Hatzofim, which overlooks Yerushalayim. Also Tsfat (Safed) the city on the top of a hill in the Galil. Interestingly, the Zohar says Moshiach will arrive first in Tsfat -- perhaps because Tsfat is tzofim, scouting the horizon, trying to witness Moshiach's arrival.

Tsipisa l'ishua? Did you look for the redemption the way one searches the horizon from the lookout point, scouting for it from all directions?

Second, in parshas Teruma we find the word 'tzipisa' used several times relating to gold-covered parts of the keilim of the Mishkan. A piece of wood was covered over in gold, and the Torah uses the loshon "tsipisa."

Tsipisa l'ishua? Was your life covered and enveloped by the idea of redemption, so that even the mundane (wood) was coated with this desire/anticipation of redemption?
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Unread 02-23-2004, 07:27 PM   #59
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nice
your own thoughts?
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Unread 02-24-2004, 09:34 AM   #60
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
nice
your own thoughts?
I [..] confess that they are my own thoughts. They came to me after I read yesterday's chitas in Parshas Teruma.

Interesting to note, the first instance of tzipisa in the parsha (25:24) also refers to the zer zahav (golden diadem) to which Rashi comments "siman l'kesser malkhus."
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Unread 05-06-2004, 12:48 PM   #61
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stamayid's view is echoed in this misnagdic article which says:

"At this point the final vision [of Yemos Ha'Moshiach] can only be intellectually understood, because the distance from where we stand is just too great."

and the Rebbe says, the Geula is unfolding before our very eyes. If we would open our eyes, we would see it ...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/ofreedom.htm
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Unread 07-25-2007, 09:35 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
The Rebbe wrote, that originally that is what he himself answered for a long time, but since there is a problem in the precise wording, therefore he looks for another pshat.
IOW, there is nothing wrong with the original pshat from the viewpoint of belief in Moshiach - because if so the Rebbe would never have assumed such a pshat in the first case. The problem with that pshat is only the wording.
Even in the final pshat, the Rebbe aceepts the Gemoro that Moshiach cannot come on certain days - just that the beggining of his coming can be every day. Ayin shom.
I hate reopening real old threads, but I could not resist.
I just "by chance" found the following:
און ווי מען זאגט "אני מאמין באמונה שלימה בביאת המשיח, ואע"פ שיתמהמה עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבאו" - ווי די צווי פירושים שבזה: דער פירוש העיקרי אין "אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא", אז "בכל יום" איז "אחכה" אויף ביאת המשיח (ווען ער וועט נאר קומען), און אויך דער צווייטער פירוש - "בכל יום שיבוא", אז ער קומט היינטיקן טאג, אע"פ אז דאס איז ערב שבת אדער שבת, און אע"פ אז עדיין לא בא אלי', מיט אלע קושיות וואס מ'קען פרעגן אויף דערויף

משיחת מוצאי ש"פ מטו"מ תשל"ט
Note which peirush he refers to as עיקרי...
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Unread 02-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #63
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It would seem from all the above that while there isn't necessarily an obligation to expect Moshiach to come every day, there are certainly sources that consider it commendable. But to me this leaves more questions than answers…


In general:

1. The most obvious question: If you absolutely believe in something 100% and it doesn't come true time and again (every day), after a few serious disappointments you'll either have to drop the belief or literally go insane. How could Torah ask someone to do something like that?

2. Doesn't it say in Gemara and Rambam specifically not to be mechashev kitzim?


In the "other" pirush of the ani maamin:

3. How does the word "achakeh" ever translate to "expect" or "believe"?

4. Syntactically, a one-time event can't be expected "every day". If anything, it should say "…I'll expect him to come today"?


I'm really confused.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 07:44 PM   #64
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavDavka View Post
It would seem from all the above that while there isn't necessarily an obligation to expect Moshiach to come every day, there are certainly sources that consider it commendable. But to me this leaves more questions than answers…


In general:

1. The most obvious question: If you absolutely believe in something 100% and it doesn't come true time and again (every day), after a few serious disappointments you'll either have to drop the belief or literally go insane. How could Torah ask someone to do something like that?
That is why there is no such obligation.
Quote:
2. Doesn't it say in Gemara and Rambam specifically not to be mechashev kitzim?
I don't think this is considered מחשב קיצים.
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Unread 02-03-2010, 07:26 PM   #65
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Fair enough.
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Unread 04-12-2010, 08:36 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
Me and Stam agree again. I am Gil Student
Yechi Moshiach Po

Is a perfect mashal......some could not care less if their bashert shows up...others are obsessed until they find that other half...
I was suspecting this for a long time
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Unread 10-11-2010, 02:26 AM   #67
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We have a personal example from Hashem:

Yishayah 30:18
ולכן יחכה הוי' לחננכם ולכן ירום לרחמכם כי אלהי משפט הוי' אשרי כל חוכי לו


Rashi:
יחכה ה' לחננכם . אינו מדלג לכם על הגזרה הרעה שנגזרה עליכם כדי למהר ולהביא הטובה אלא יחכה וימתין עד בא קיצה

Hashem continues to act according to the way we behave. He hopes that we will improve our ways and waits until the end. He doesn't skip stages, even thought He KNOWS (and who better than Him?!) that the end will eventually come when we will all merit the good that He wants to give us already. But even so, He HOPES and WAITS.
Similarly, we have to realize that if mashiach has not yet been revealed, we cannot skip stages by saying he is already here, even though we KNOW that he will come eventually. In the meantime, we HOPE and pray and WAIT for Hashem to find us meritorious enough to bring Mashiach NOW.

Rashi:
אשרי כל חוכי לו . לנחמות אשר הבטיח כי לא יפול דבר

The bottom line is: it depends on me (and you). Hashem is waiting for US!

Last edited by Yitzy; 10-11-2010 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Deleted reference to post that needed to be moved to another thread
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Unread 05-04-2016, 01:04 AM   #68
aaron benjamin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stamayid View Post
According to R' Yehoshua, the Geuloh will be in Nissan. According to R' Eliezer it will be in Tishrei. That means that according to R' Yehoshua, Moshiach will come in Nissan and not the other 11 months of the year. And according to R' Eliezer only in Tishrei and not in the other eleven months of the year.

There are other similar statements in Chazal, not least of which is that Eliyohu will not come on erev Shabbos and erev Yom Tov.
I have also wondered how these sayings of Chazal can be reconciled with the idea that we await Mashiach every day according to the Rambam.
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Unread 05-04-2016, 01:13 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
"As has been explained [in the sicha referenced by Torah613], this does not mean that every day we should wait for Mashiach's ultimate coming, but that every day, we should wait expectantly for Mashiach to come on that very day."

Quite a different conclusion.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ar/15.htm#t308
What is the difference?
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Unread 05-04-2016, 04:24 AM   #70
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The question is whether there's a need to expect Moshiach to come today. Or just to wait for him today. The distinction is it's possible to wait today, for a future event, even though you don't expect it to happen anytime soon.
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Unread 05-04-2016, 12:26 PM   #71
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Thank you for explaining. So is it a fact that the geulah is predetermined that it will come in Nissan or can it come during the rest of the year as well?
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Unread 05-04-2016, 05:39 PM   #72
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Nissan is a great time for Moshiach to come, fantastic in fact, since now we're in Nissan! But if you'd have asked me in Adar, I'd tell you that Adar is the best time for Moshiach to come.
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Unread 05-04-2016, 10:04 PM   #73
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What about the argument of Chazal one Rabbi saying that the redemption will come in Tishrei, the other Rabbi saying that the redemption will come in Nissan and then I saw a writing of the Previous Rebbe where he said that the halacha is that the redemption will come in Nissan? With this in mind, how can one say that Mashiach can come any time of the year?
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Unread 05-09-2016, 06:43 AM   #74
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The sfas emes explains (rosh hashana 11b):

Quote:
בגמ' בתשרי עתידין ליגאל בס' טו"א מפלפל בכאן בסוגיא דעירובין הנודר מיין ביום שבן דוד בא ע"ש שהאריך למעניתו בדברים שאינם נראים דמילתא דפשיטא הוא דבאמת בן דוד לחוד וגאולה לחוד שהרי מרע"ה בא למצרים קודם הגאולה וכמו כן יוכל להיות בגאולה העתידה וכן מבואר במדרשים מה גואל ראשון נגלה ונכסה כו' כך גואל אחרון כו' וממילא גם הא דאמרינן זכו אחישנה והיום אם בקולי כו' הכל היא על ביאת הגואל אבל הגאולה יהי' למר בניסן ולמר בתשרי כמ"ש:
In other words, the Moshiach can come anytime (just like Moshe came to Mitzrayim before the redemption). But the redemption itself will commence either in Tishrei or in Nissan.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 01:44 PM   #75
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Thank you for the explanation. Until now I always thought that when Mashiach would come the redemption would begin. According to what you are explaining it is not neccesarily the case. Interesting thank you.
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