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Unread 06-09-2012, 10:46 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Davvening for material wealth?

Here the Tzemach Tzedek doesn't seem to indicate that there is any problem with davvening for material wealth, just that you have to davven for it and make a greater keli for it. While here the Frierdikeh Rebbe clearly thinks it's a problem, because you are kidding yourself that you want it leshem Shomayim; it's just coming from your yeshus.

Now, you can answer, "if you truly want wealth leshem Shomayim, then you can davven for it." But that sounds like a madreigah, and I wonder how many wannabe gevirim, never mind actual gevirim, are ever holding by that.

Also, if the Mitzvah of tefillah is to davven for what you feel that you are lacking, then even if you haven't reached the madreigah of wanting all gashmiyus leshem Shomayim, shouldn't you davven for it if that's your desire? But l'idoch, if your kavonoh is not pure, and you know that only too well, isn't it going against Hashem to davven for something that is against Hashem's will--that you be memalei your taavah for mosros?

Lmaaseh people don't seem to be "choshesh" to the concern of the Frierdikeh Rebbe; aderabah, if you express a wish for Hashem to simply provide you with your needs as per the posuk "Give me neither poverty nor riches, but provide me with my daily bread," people will tell you "no--ask for harchavah davka!"

Some suggested reasons for this hanhagah: 1. the Rebbe bentched others with harchavah. But so what--did the Rebbe public ask for himself to have harchavah? Aderaba, the Rebbe preferred living very modestly davka! 2. They want the best for you--that's takkeh very nice, so let them bentch you with as much as they want--why should you modify your request? Is it so terrible to simply follow the example of Shlomo hamelech?
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Unread 06-09-2012, 11:19 PM   #2
emes m'eretz
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the tzemach tzedek is discussing the mechanics. how it works when one asks for riches, and how it works when one asks for just what one needs.

the fridike rebbe is explaining that when someone asks for riches, it can be that his yeshus is involved.

from a quick look, it doesn't seem like either one is recommending for or against (asking for riches).

so there is no contradiction. each is discussing a certain perspective. and "words of torah are poor in one place and rich in another." (divrei torah aniyim bemokom echod, v'ashirim bemokoim acher.)

Last edited by emes m'eretz; 06-10-2012 at 12:25 AM.
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Unread 06-10-2012, 04:35 PM   #3
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The Frierdikker Rebbe mentions an issue with making the mistake that he deserves it because he mainly wants to serve Hashem with it when he really mainly wants it for himself. If he were to be aware that the opposite is true (and surely if he felt that way) then it might not be as much of a big deal though perhaps not optimal. He has work to do, but for where he is currently holding he has removed from himself any inhibitions from moving on to the next step and for his current state to be acceptable to Hashem, like self-delusion.

Bderech efsher as usual.
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Unread 06-10-2012, 05:41 PM   #4
Torah613
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לכאו' מתורץ ע"פ המבואר בלקו"ש חי"ט ר"ה- ו תשרי ע"ש היטב
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Unread 06-11-2012, 05:31 AM   #5
emes m'eretz
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paper: interesting approach.

torah613: thank you for the source.
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Unread 06-11-2012, 07:41 PM   #6
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emes m'eretz, it did seem to me that the Frierdikeh Rebbe is negating the very idea of asking for riches. And the Tzemach Tzedek doesn't qualify, "it's okay to ask for riches, as long as you only want it for pure, altruistic reasons", but if not, then don't ask for it. The Tzemach Tzedek simply says: if you want riches, make sure to davven sincerely to Hashem for it, and make a greater keli in parnasah. Period.

Paper, if one's intent in asking for wealth is for one's own hedonistic motives, then why would one's awareness of one's lack of kavanah leshem Shomayim make the request more acceptable? The Frierdikeh Rebbe compares it to "ganvo apum machtarta, Rachmana karya." So to carry the analogy, if a ganev would recognize that it's a sin to rob, would it then be more acceptable for him to davven for hatzlachah? I think not.
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Unread 06-11-2012, 10:49 PM   #7
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As I said, it's not optimal. But he has resolved to use it to serve Hashem better. Beforehand he was "at most" fooling himself into thinking so. That is what was compared to a ganav.
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Unread 06-11-2012, 11:05 PM   #8
emes m'eretz
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emes m'eretz, it did seem to me that the Frierdikeh Rebbe is negating the very idea of asking for riches.
the fridike rebbe doesn't say "don't ask for riches."

according to your reasoning, the fridike rebbe is negating the very idea of working (and davening) for parnoso (since right after the part about riches, he talks about working for a living), and davening for children (see the kitzur on that ois, where he puts the inyan of riches together with the inyan of children).

and according to your reasoning, whenever the rabeim criticize eating not lishem shomayim (in order to serve Hashem), they are negating the very idea of eating.

if you study the ois carefully, you'll see that the fridike rebbe starts the inyan by saying "when a person asks for help from Hashem..." so he's talking about asking for any help. he then uses asking for riches as an example.


by the way, a groiser yasher koach for bringing the two links. they were very enlightening.

Last edited by emes m'eretz; 06-12-2012 at 05:50 AM.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 07:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
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לכאו' מתורץ ע"פ המבואר בלקו"ש חי"ט ר"ה- ו תשרי ע"ש היטב
It seems that most of that Sicha speaks about the Tfila of Rosh Hashono. Davening for your tzrochim on Rosh Hashono doesn't justify it for the rest of the year. Are you referring to the paragraph that explains how the Tfila of Kol Hashono is different? Just because someone is a metzius because he is not lifnei Hamelech that wouldn't necessarily mean he should daven for his tzrochim. Maybe your point is simply that it says its okay to do even though it doesn't explain there why.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 07:33 AM   #10
Torah613
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תורת הבעל שם טוב
ואולי להעיר מהיום יום לג' תמוז

Last edited by Torah613; 06-14-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 05:06 PM   #11
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The way the Rebbe uses the Toras Habal Shem Tov to answer the question applies specifically to the Tfila of Rosh Hashono, not the rest of the year, no?
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Unread 06-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #12
emes m'eretz
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the question by rosh hashono was: if a yid is completely into crowning the King, how can he think about his own needs? the rebbe uses the besht's vort to explain that it's takeh the person's own needs (because he wants the food), but it's for Hashem (since the person wants the food because his soul hungers to refine it).

but this vort (that the person's soul hungers to refine the food) is applicable all year. and it can add insight to the thread's discussion (whether it's appropriate to ask for riches) because it gives a reason why asking for material things (during the year) can be ideal.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 07:14 PM   #13
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Though the Toras Habal Shem Tov is true year yound, I think the Sicha may have been saying that there is a stronger connection to Pnimiyus Hainyonim on Rosh Hashona, so the answer why davven for your tzrachim was only applicable to Rosh Hashona.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 08:36 PM   #14
emes m'eretz
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not necessarily.

the rebbe is using the vort of the besht to answer the contradiction by rosh hashono.

but if the vort applies all year, and we ask for our needs all year, why can't we say that the two go together?
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Unread 06-17-2012, 09:18 PM   #15
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אן אויסגוס פון פנימיות הנפש, וואס דאס דוקא האט א שייכות צום מצב פון שטייען ״לפני ה׳...

For the rest of the year there is a different reason, as we discussed earlier.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 10:19 PM   #16
emes m'eretz
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see footnote 7 that, according to droshas chazal, chana's prayer was not on rosh hashono. (the shaloh says it was)

Last edited by emes m'eretz; 06-18-2012 at 04:02 AM.
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Unread 06-17-2012, 10:45 PM   #17
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הבעש"ט אינו מדבר על ר"ה דוקא, כפשוט. וראה ג"כ לקו"ש במצוין שם בהע' ע"ש
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Unread 06-18-2012, 02:15 AM   #18
emes m'eretz
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as i understand it, paper wants to be mechalek between the vort of the besht per se, and using the vort to explain the appropriateness of davening for gashmius.

he wants to say that the vort of the besht is for everyday, but that using the vort to explain the appropriateness of davening for gashmius, is something that the rebbe used only for davening on rosh hashono.

i think that the basic answer to paper is: meheichi teisa. the reason that the rebbe used the vort of the besht to answer the contradiction in rosh hashono davening, is because there was a contradiction in the rosh hashono davening.

but why can't the vort be used for everyday davening? the vort is for everyday, chana's tefila was not (according to one opinion) on rosh hashono. so lechora it's possible for someone to daven on a weekday with the besht's intention.

where do you see the rebbe clearly negating it?

Last edited by emes m'eretz; 06-18-2012 at 04:02 AM.
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Unread 06-18-2012, 10:06 AM   #19
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Maybe only when you have אן אויסגוס פון פנימיות הנפש, e.g. by Chana, or on Rosh Hashono, when he is נתעורר to be מבקש צרכיו הגשמיים with a שפיכת הנפש which בפנימיות is a הזזה עצמית פון עצם הנשמה is this answer applicable. Otherwise why does the Sicha get so specific about that, especially at the end of Oys Ches? Also throughout the Sicha there seems to be specific mention of Rosh Hashono if you look carefully.
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Unread 06-18-2012, 02:51 PM   #20
emes m'eretz
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maybe the inyan of intense shfichus hanefesh is for the purpose of answering the contradiction (how it's possible to have bitul to the Melech, and at the same time ask for physical needs). so the answer is that instense bitul to the Melech on the one hand, together with intense shfichus hanefesh and hazozo pnimius (to refine the gashmius) on the other hand, is hainu hach, the same thing. (so there is no contradiction.)

so the emphasis on intensity is only for rosh hashono, or chana's tefila, when one intensity (shfichus hanefesh) matches and is on the same wavelength as the other intensity (bitul lamelech).

but the besht's vort might, lechora, still be applicable for davening the whole year, albeit not with the same intensity and shfichus hanefesh (which is not not necessary the whole year). and during the year, even a less intense yearning or feeling of wanting to be mevarer the gashmius may be enough reason (among other reasons) to validate davening for gashmius.
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Unread 06-19-2012, 07:27 AM   #21
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Maybe, but since I have no Hechrech to say that, I'm not going to, especially considering the fact that I have other adequate answers to that question anyway (namely, Hashem allows him to ask for his needs when there are both selfish and selfless reasons simultaneously involved).

I would even like to understand the Rebbe's reasoning for his answer (maybe he was muchrach to because he couldn't think of any other reason why you could be mevakesh tzrochim on Rosh Hashono (But since that reason is one level above the normal Rievim gam tzmeiim, I don't necessarily have a reason to say that in general)), since I could have taane'd soif soif it is not his ratzon hagaluy, but that's somewhat beside the point.
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Unread 06-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #22
emes m'eretz
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since I could have taane'd soif soif it is not his ratzon hagaluy
i think that the mehalech of the sicha (page 296, 297) is that (eventually, especially via learning the sicha) the pnimius should come out begolui.
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Unread 06-19-2012, 02:16 PM   #23
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ויש להעיר עד"ז בנוגע מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה, וביאור רבינו בזה
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Unread 06-20-2012, 01:11 AM   #24
emes m'eretz
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ויש להעיר עד"ז בנוגע מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה, וביאור רבינו בזה
in a sentence or two, what does the rebbe say about it? (and, if it's easy for you, where does he say it?)
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Unread 06-20-2012, 07:37 AM   #25
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לקו"ש ח"כ לך לך (ב) ובפרט מס"ט ואילך ובתוך הדברים מזכיר ג"כ תורת הבעש"ט הנ"ל
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