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Unread 01-12-2012, 10:59 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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on taanugei olam hazeh

In the quote below (from the maamar here), the Rebbe says that we should remove all worldly pleasures from ourselves. How does this fit with the inyan quoted in Tanya ch. 7:

Quote:
כגון ד"מ האוכל בשרא שמינא דתורא ושותה יין מבושם להרחיב דעתו לה' ולתורתו כדאמר רבא חמרא וריחא כו'

If a person truly didn't enjoy taanugei olam hazeh, then how could those taanugim be poel on him or her harchovas hada'as if he or she did them leshem Shomayim?

Also, this maamar seems to be saying that this is an avodah for everyone. But isn't this davka an avodah of a Tzaddik, or the avodah of a non-Tzadik to try to be a Tzadik--Tehi Tzadik, as explained in Tanya end ch. 14, which the Alter Rebbe says will the vast majority of the time only be reached "bedimyonos", etc.?
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Unread 01-13-2012, 01:19 PM   #2
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The reality is that you have a body and when it is stronger it works better... like the gemora says "hei d'lo amri lach urta..." without gas it does't run...

It has nothing to do with deriving selfish pleasure, it is about having a body....
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Unread 01-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #3
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That doesn't seem to be correct. It doesn't say "so the guf will be stronger." It says so that the person will have harchovas ha'daas. You have harchovas ha'daas from gashmiyus when you enjoy that gashmiyus. That seems bepashtus to be the meaning of the maamar Chazal: "diroh no'oh, keilim no'im, v'isho no'oh marchivin daato shel odom," which is along the lines of the pisgam cited in Tanya, "chamro v'reicho pakchin."
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Unread 01-14-2012, 07:39 PM   #4
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there is a difference between "taava", and "taanug", all tava gashmiyus is bad all taanug gashmiyus isn't.
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Unread 01-14-2012, 11:09 PM   #5
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I am aware that they are two separate words; however, they are typically used interchangeably. Do you have a source that proves and explains this distinction?
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Unread 01-15-2012, 12:20 AM   #6
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Look in the Rebbe's ho'oroh in on Kuntres Havodah perek beis (pg. 11) about "sumah ein loi taynug...". Regarding the blind, meforshim bring a distinction that he doesn't have taynug but he still has tayvah. I've seen this distinction made in that gemara and others. They're clearly 2 different things. They have very different t'chunois, found both in nigleh d'toirah and in nistar. I once looked into this inyan and found this to be so.

couldntbe's right about this, and כד דייקת שפיר - you'll see they're not really used interchangeably.

Start with the source I gave you - that should be your lead...
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Unread 01-15-2012, 12:30 AM   #7
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And nu... In the famous Emor sicho the Rebbe also said "t'hee tzadik" can mean kipshutoi nowadays. You're bringing a question from the Rebbe's maamar, and your question isn't muchrach...
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Unread 01-15-2012, 06:51 PM   #8
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I looked up that Gemoro that the Rebbe cites--I take it that the Rebbe means to refer to the end of the omud. Can you explain where a distinction is drawn there, or even implied, between taanug and taavah? I missed it--sorry.
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Unread 01-16-2012, 01:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post
all tava gashmiyus is bad all taanug gashmiyus isn't.
..כי תאוה נפשך לאכל בשר בכל אות נפשך תאכל בשר...
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Unread 01-16-2012, 08:46 AM   #10
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and your proof that, that is a positive thing is?
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Unread 01-16-2012, 12:32 PM   #11
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You said that, not me.. It was a question on your statement..
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Unread 01-17-2012, 02:30 PM   #12
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And mine was an answer. the "?" was rhetorical.

(yesh l'hair from the pirush ha'besht on נפשם בהם תתעטף).
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Unread 01-17-2012, 05:02 PM   #13
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How can you have תענוג without רצון?
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Unread 01-17-2012, 09:17 PM   #14
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Tuesday - no offense meant, but your writing is very terse and cryptic, and it's very difficult to make sense out of your posts. If you want to contribute to a discussion, could you please write in a way for us to clearly understand your point? Thanks!
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Unread 01-17-2012, 10:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post
(yesh l'hair from the pirush ha'besht on נפשם בהם תתעטף).
... and this isn't any less terse and cryptic. What are you being meyir, and where does it say it?
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Unread 01-18-2012, 12:31 PM   #16
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couldntbe got the question...
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Unread 01-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday View Post
How can you have תענוג without רצון?
Is תאוה the same as רצון? I think not.
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Unread 01-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #18
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yes... תאוה is a

רצון פשוט...

used interchangeably..

שרש of רצונות מורכבים...

so כ"ש וק"ו...

you can't have one without the other... אין תענוג בלא רצון ואין רצון בלא תענוג...

So how can you have a good תענוג גשמי but no good תאווה גשמי...?

Unless your תאוה is נתאווה הקב"ה... then they are both good... and if not they are both עובד א"ע...

זאת תורת הבהמה והעוף... עם הארץ אסור לאכול.. כל העוסק בתורה מותר...

וד"ל

Last edited by Tuesday; 01-18-2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: וד"ל
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Unread 01-18-2012, 02:59 PM   #19
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Please come down from Chochmah to Binah.
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Unread 01-18-2012, 07:07 PM   #20
couldntbe
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This answers Tuesday as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist View Post
... and this isn't any less terse and cryptic. What are you being meyir, and where does it say it?
The פירוש הבעש"ט is in כתר שם טוב סי' קצד, see לקו"ש חלק יט עמ' קצד that should wrap up this conversation.
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Unread 01-18-2012, 10:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post
The פירוש הבעש"ט is in כתר שם טוב סי' קצד.
May I point out that that teaching is cited and explained here.
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Unread 01-18-2012, 11:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday View Post
couldntbe got the question...
I guess not...
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Unread 01-19-2012, 06:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday View Post
I guess not...
Oh, I assumed that you would understand the answer, "I guess not".
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Unread 01-19-2012, 03:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
However, the Baal Shem Tov teaches that deep down, our physical desires are motivated by pure, spiritual urges.[2] The Neshamah senses the sparks of holiness hidden in the physical (see here), knows that this is the entire purpose of its descent into the body, and yearns to accomplish this task.
דהיינו that the תאוה & ענג of the נשמה is למלאות רצונו ית' דנתאווה הקב"ה.. and the objective is to reveal this תאוה עצמי... any other רצון תענוג או תאוה is עובד את עצמו... as in להשכילך בינה.. my point above which clearly everyone agrees on..

as such, to say that you can have a "good תענוג גשמי" without the above תאוה עצמי revealed is false as הא בהא תליא... If the תאוה עצמי of the נשמה is not revealed then.. עובד א"ע.. so my question is on your "terse" statement above re good תענוג, bad תאוה, not on any of the references sources and wonderful quotes which did not answer that...
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Unread 01-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #25
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So you asking me a question based on Noahide's post from his blog?

From your post it seems that you didn't look up the sicha, is that correct?
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