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Unread 11-09-2005, 01:35 AM   #1
Aaronke
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Tzaddik ve'Ra Lo

I heard that he [Shmuel Munkas] was a Tzadik Vera Lo!
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Unread 11-09-2005, 10:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronke
I heard that he was a Tzadik Vera Lo!
If that was so, then it's amazing how he was able to be so cheerful and humorus all the time. That's the real test: whether our faith in Hashem waivers when troubling things happen to us.
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Unread 11-09-2005, 11:18 PM   #3
n'eNow770
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If he was in such good spirits than he can't even be considered and Tzadik V'ra Lo. After all we know that the rich ones are those who are happy with what they have-samayach b'chalko...
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Unread 11-10-2005, 09:12 PM   #4
l'il chassidka
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So why can't he be considered a tzadik v'ra lo?
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Unread 11-10-2005, 09:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPG613
If that was so, then it's amazing how he was able to be so cheerful and humorus all the time. That's the real test: whether our faith in Hashem waivers when troubling things happen to us.
I think you misunderstood what "tzadik vera lo' means (hint: it does not mean he is having a miserable life)
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Unread 11-10-2005, 11:50 PM   #6
JewishHiphop
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happiness and righteousness

Quote:
Originally Posted by n'eNow770
If he was in such good spirits than he can't even be considered and Tzadik V'ra Lo. After all we know that the wise ones are those who are happy with what they have-samayach b'chalko...
Actually, I think those are the rich ones. Some people are born with a biological disposition towards depression while others are born with a biological disposition towards happiness. Does this make them intrinsically wicked or righteous?
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Unread 11-10-2005, 11:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LION
I think you misunderstood what "tzadik vera lo' means (hint: it does not mean he is having a miserable life)
Probably meant the gemoro...
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Unread 11-11-2005, 12:30 AM   #8
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A Tzaddik and one who is very much not a Tzadik, will both go through same same situations, if you ask the latter how he is, he will respond "oh everthing is terrible, lifes a mess, job stinks, and i have a back ache"
A Tzaddik will respong, "Baruch Hashem" He will realize his issues, but when he puts his Bithachon in Hashem, there's nothing to loose, when Hashem becomes your so-to-speak "Nachla" you are richer than anyone else. We might call someone a Tzaddik V'ra Lo, but to him he might feel he is not so at all (for example R' Zushe). We need to view our lives as everything is from Hashem, we have nothing to worry about. Everything is good because it's from the Ultimate Source of Goodness-HaKadosh Baruch Hu.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 04:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Probably meant the gemoro...
For those who don't understand T613's hints I believe he is referring to ברכות דף ז' ע"א.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 06:56 PM   #10
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Your belief is correct...
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Unread 11-13-2005, 07:47 PM   #11
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why not explain what it means in tanya (mind my amoratzus, but it means that he did a little bit of aveiros).

tzadik v'ra lo according to chassidus simply means that he doesn't hate klipa with a passion, therefore disqualifying him as a tzadik gommur, i.e. a "Merkava":

the fact that he doesn't hate evil with a passion (but rather some type of external hisbonenus or hisorerus) means that his being isn't so bottul to hashem, because if it was then he would hate evil with a greater passion, as if it was some type of natural instinct.

but natural instinct cannot hate itself and wish for self-destruction (which is the big chiddush regarding the bittul of the yidden, who want to serve hashem because ... just because, but not because of some other gain) and the person still has some type of connection to "ra" or evil therefore preventing this hate from coming naturally.

hate isn't a mitzvah, at least not this type of hate (since there's a mitzvah to hate evil, so we must conclude that even the beinuni does so), but natural and passionate hate can only emerge from a true bond and bittul.

a tzadik is someone who doesn't have a yetzer hora or nh"b, but it doesn't mean that he is totally botul (the neshomo also has it's own personal powers and kochos which are considered to be hischalkus, like חי הוי' אשר עמדתי לפניו ...)
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Unread 11-13-2005, 10:11 PM   #12
n'eNow770
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Oh wow, thank you SO much for that!
I had no clue that there was a different explanation of Tzadik V'ra Lo.
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Unread 11-14-2005, 02:00 AM   #13
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there's a button on the right for that (i'm beginning to realize that iv'e been in a no-thank slump for quite some time...)

JK. do whatever you want
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Unread 11-14-2005, 02:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronke
I heard that he [Shmuel Munkas] was a Tzadik Vera Lo!
Did you read this (if so, kindly post where), or did you hear this?
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Unread 01-27-2006, 01:59 AM   #15
Aaronke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoravDave
Did you read this (if so, kindly post where), or did you hear this?
I heard it from a big Rov a while ago.
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Unread 02-10-2012, 02:26 AM   #16
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Tzaddik v'ra lo simply means a righteous person who suffers. The deeper meaning, as explained in Tanya ch. 1, is that he has a minuscule amount of kelipa in him, but he is totally in control of it and it never manifests itself. About this the Alter Rebbe brings: "ופירשו בגמרא צדיק וטוב לו צדיק גמור צדיק ורע לו צדיק שאינו גמור." Are these two interpretations necessarily related, or could they exist independently of each other, i.e., a Tzaddik could suffer but still be a Tzaddik gomur, or not suffer, and still be merely a Tzaddik Gomur?
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Unread 03-18-2012, 05:33 AM   #17
emes m'eretz
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In Rabbi Korf's Likutei Biurim Bisefer Tanya (chelek rishon, pages 17 and 18) he quotes from the Haaros of the Tzemach Tzedek, where the Tzemach Tzedek seems to connect the two pirushim (ie. tzadik gomur vitov loi according to the zohar, brings tov loi in gashmius).

I wanted to look it up, in the Haaros of the Tzemach Tzedek on Tanya, but I don't seem to have the sefer, and I can't find it on line.
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