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Unread 12-21-2004, 04:19 AM   #1
Esrog
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Reform Movement Horror Stories

Not too long ago I was involved with mikariving someone who was extremely disconnected from Judaism. I finally got her to accept that Judaism was important but just then as she was on the precipice of holiness, she decided that therefore she needed to get involved with her local non-Orthodox temple. I was able to talk her out of this diversion of her soul’s true purpose by doing research into that temple, which was full of horror stories, like keeping out people on the High Holidays who hadn’t paid their dues. This research played a key role in helping her make the right choice and starting to do real mitzvas according to Halacha.

Consequently, I have always wanted to collect information about how ridiculous and dreadful is Reform Judaism. The purpose is not just to obsess over some nonsense but to have the evidence to dissuade Jews from following the wrong path as they make moves toward their roots.

Many Jews say, “I don’t go to temple but if I did it would be Reform.” It would be highly useful if they knew that Reform is atrocious, so that when they make their move back to their roots, they will know which way to go.

I would be grateful if you can post below any stories you know about the evils of Reform “Judaism.” Any information, preferably with sourcing, or links, or anecdotes you’ve heard, with as much detail as you are able to provide, would be very helpful.
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Unread 12-21-2004, 06:18 AM   #2
hope2beAbochur
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

my dad was talking to someone in shul who he is friendly with but doesn't think religion is important.
this guy tells my dad he doesn't consider himself orthadox but more of a reform jew, then my dad explains a bit about what the reform do etc... and the guy says ahh ok then, i don't want to be with them i would much rather consider myself orthdaox than be associated with some of their practices

in my opinion reform is just looking to dilute judaism in order to assimilate with the goyim, this is totally contrary to everything that a jew should be doing!!
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Unread 12-21-2004, 09:48 AM   #3
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

I'm sorry- I think this whole topic is inappropriate. If you want to discuss different practices that you feel do or do not result in a closer relationship with Hashem or whatever, that is fine. To single out a group of Jews and solicit "horror stories" about them is just so divisive. If I were a non-religious Jew, your attitude would be so off-putting. How would you feel if reform Jews suddenly started soliciting horror stories about the ultra-orthodox ? You probably did not mean for your request to come across like that, but be careful how you phrase things. We need more Jewish unity now , not less.
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Unread 12-21-2004, 12:55 PM   #4
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Unity with Reform Judaism is not a goal at all. In fact, it is an issur. We want to be mekarev Reform Jews as individuals, but the movement is not part of that equation. If someone wants to expose Reform Judaism for the narishkeit and sickness that it is, what's wrong with that?
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Unread 12-21-2004, 09:24 PM   #5
Esrog
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Exactly, Chabadnika. Perfectly said.

Oooooh. Sounds like I really touched a raw nerve. Mcp, it is only the truth that hurts. Mcp, you are implying a moral equivalency between Orthodox Judaism and the policies and positions of the Reform Movement.

Mcp, good and evil are not equal.

I did not want to get too explicit, but actually I can see now that there is so much naivete about the evils of Reform “Judaism” that it is necessary to be quite explicit.

So let me start things off with a really good example. Non-Orthodox movements in the U.S. have in recent years been trying to get “equivalence” to Orthodox Judaism with “quickie” shortcuts. Among these are the use of the circumcision clamp, a kind of “assembly line” method that skips the rigorous training needed to become a true mohel (circumciser). There are those who are not properly trained in mila (circumcision) but are seeking to do “competing business.” Non-Orthodox mohelim (circumcisers), in order to compete, despite the lack of proper training, are using clamps to do shoddy “insta-milas.” The training is brief, the bodily damage and lingering pain is not.

Circumcision may not be performed using a “circumcision clamp” which is absolutely forbidden under Jewish Law. Not only this, but the Food and Drug Administration has now issued warnings against circumcision clamps, saying that they can cause “penile amputation” — cutting off parts of the male organ besides the foreskin. Yet Reform and Conservative “mohelim” use them all the time, even though they can cause hysterical screaming by the baby for a half an hour or more.

Note this FDA advisory letter:

Potential for Injury from Circumcision Clamps

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/safety/circumcision.html

The letter says,

“This letter is to alert you to the potential for injury from two commonly used circumcision clamps, the Gomco®/gomco-type and Mogen®/mogen-type clamps. Both are widely used during circumcision to remove the foreskin while protecting the glans penis. Although research suggests that circumcision is generally a safe procedure, we are concerned that some serious device-related complications have occurred. We received 105 reports of injuries involving circumcision clamps between July 1996 and January 2000. These have included laceration, hemorrhage, penile amputation, and urethral damage.”

Horror stories? You better believe it.

105 horror stories on circumcision alone, to be exact, according to the FDA, just the reports on this sent to the FDA alone, horror stories — I’m sorry, there is no other way to describe it — involving laceration, hemorrhage, urethral damage and — penile amputation. These are the terms the FDA itself used. If these are not horror stories, what would you call them?

I know of a specific non-Orthodox circumciser affiliated with a prominent non-Orthodox temple, who openly admits he uses a circumcision clamp. A prominent Lubavitch rabbi in his area, with whom I spoke personally, told me he had personally witnessed that circumciser’s circumcision, using the clamp, and he called him a “butcher.”

It is not we who are being “divisive” but butchers who destroy little children in the name of “equality.”

Last edited by Esrog; 12-21-2004 at 09:32 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 12:50 PM   #6
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Hey Esrog- calm down. I am not knowledgeable enough about circumcision details to agree or disagree with what you write. Maybe their way is more painful than it needs to be- I don't know. That is not the point of my comment and I am not sure why you went on this whole bris milah tangent. My point is that the difference between reform and orthodox is that the latter believes in the absolute Divinity of the Torah and in strict adherence to tradition and the former do not. That's it. It is a difference in religious opinion. The words "evil", "butchers", "sickness" ( chabadnika's post) are inflammatory and just make you sound like a fanatic. The average person gets turned off very quickly when hearing this high-school drama stuff. Save the term "evil" for ****** and those who murder innocents. If you disagree with someone about how they practice Judaism, there is no need to degrade the discussion into good vs. evil- it just makes you sound like a nut. Which I am sure that you are not- you are probably a normal, opionated person with a strong belief system who just hasn't learned how to express opinions in a socially acceptable way. I am much more interested in hearing about the practices that you may disagree with than whether or not people who disagree with you are "evil".
And for those of you who still don't understand my opinion, try to recall how the Rebbe reacted when presented with labels such as Reform, Conservative etc.- if you remember, he would always become upset and insist that we are all just Jews.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 01:13 PM   #7
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Clearly you are also not knowledgeable enough about what the gedolim have said and say about the Reform movement. It is an evil movement that has driven countless thousands upon thousands of Jews away from Torah Judaism for centuries. There are no two ways about it. Rav Shimshon Refael Hirsch paskened that it was assur for a frum organization and a Reform organization to do anything together. That holds true in a lot of ways today.

In terms of bris milah-the point wasn't just the pain, it's also the fact that it VIOLATES HALACHA. Both are big problems. I think the point of the 'tangent' was actually a continuation of the thread topic, specifically in response to your defense of the movement.

Your point is that the difference between Reform and Orthodox is that the latter believes in the absolute Divinity of the Torah and in strict adherence to tradition and the former doesn't. That's true. But that's not "it". That is a HUGE difference, one which puts the Reform movement outside the pale of Judaism. It's not a difference in religious opinion. It is an attempt to destroy Torah Judaism, C"V.

The words may be inflammatory and may make people sound like fanatics, and yes, the average person may get turned off very quickly when hearing words like that, but they are true. A movement that seeks to destroy Hashem's Torah C"V is evil. I can't think of any other word for it. Can you?

Just because ****** YS"V was evil does not mean that other things are not evil. The Reform movement is evil.

It is true that if you disagree with a Litvisher, or a Sefardi, or Belzer Chassid about how he practices Judaism, there is no need to make the discussion about good versus evil, because that is not the topic at hand. If you disagree with a Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist Jew about how he practices Judaism, the discussion is about good versus evil: those movements are evil.

And who decides what's socially acceptable in terms of expressing opinions? President George W. Bush spoke about good versus evil when speaking about people that want to destroy the American way of life, and the people who give them refuge. President Ronald Reagan spoke about good versus evil in discussing the Soviet Union and its way of life.* So I guess the liberals in the United States decide what's socially acceptable in terms of expressing opinions-nothing is good or evil, it's all relative. That is a completely anti-Torah way of looking at things. There are things that are goodl, and things that are evil. Yes, there are things that are neither, but the Reform movement is not one of them.

In disagreeing with the actions and beliefs of the Reform movement, it is not enough to just disagree, it must be repeated again and again that it is an evil movement.

The alleged reaction of the Rebbe when presented with the labels "Reform" and "Conservative" was probably from a different angle than you are proposing: We are talking here about the movement, not about its members (which the Rebbe was talking about). The Rebbe had not a word of defense for the Conservative and Reform movements (or any other deviant movement), but of course we should love our fellow Jews who happen to unfortunately be involved in such destructive movements. You can love a Jew and hate hate hate what he does.


*These are examples of how even the "big Goy[im] in Washington" (as the Rebbe supposedly referred to the president) understand that good and evil are real things, not relative concepts, kal vachomer we should understand them. It is not to say that what the President of the United States says is Torah, C"V.

Last edited by Chabadnika; 12-22-2004 at 01:16 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 01:30 PM   #8
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

I can't say it any other way. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are "evil". For example, I disagree with you and I don't think that you are evil. There are plenty of other words that you can use when speaking about people or movements that you don't agree with -like "misguided", "uninformed", "illogical", "confused", "extremist", "simplistic", "poorly thought out", "hypocritical" and so on.

When you use the same word for ****** as you do for the Reform movement, you equate the two and discredit your own arguments. Just like when PETA, the animal activist group, spoke about how slaughtering chickens was evil and comparable to the Holocaust, they lost all credibility in the eyes of the public and quickly pulled that slogan from their ads.

When presidents talk about evil, such as in Reagan's speech about Russia, they are generally discussing tyrranies that result in the death of millions of people and loss of basic human rights. Putting every single movement whose agenda is not in sync with you own into that category may make you feel better, more self-righteous, whatever, but it will eliminate you from intelligent discourse.

A helpful, well-thought out discussion can't be extreme because no one but your own circle of like-minded friends will listen. On this site, you can say what you like, but in the real world ( which you hope to influence, I assume) your extreme position and inflammatory rhetoric will be counterproductive and you run the risk of making a fool out of yourself. Be careful and good luck.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 01:38 PM   #9
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

First of all, the Reform movement is evil, whether ****** is or not. ****** does not have the monopoly on evil. I'm sorry, a movement that has led so many Jews astray and created so many problems (patrilineal descent, as one example) for the Jewish community in so many ways, is evil. There is no other way to put it. Again, I did not say the person who disagrees with Torah Judaism is evil, but the movement is evil. The beliefs are evil.

The problem with PETA was that they were calling the slaughter of animals a Holocaust on a plate and putting pictures of Holocaust victims next to pictures of animals. That is what was wrong with them, not that they called two things evil.

Also, I have many friends who practice Conservative and Reform Judaism. Obviously I don't strike up conversations with them about the evil of the movement. But when someone asks what I think about this or that, it is important to be honest and say it like it is-those movements are wrong, and have caused great damage to the Jewish people. Perhaps in some circumstances, I might even tell the person that the movement is evil. You do not accomplish anything by being apologetic for your beliefs.

The discussion on ChabadTalk assumes that the discussions are about Torah Judaism and are not catered to a Conservative or Reform audience. I do not see this site as a mivtzoim route, and thus I alter my discussions appropriately.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 01:41 PM   #10
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Also, perhaps erroneously, you have defined good and evil. You decided that terrorism is evil. Terrorism destroys bodies. The Reform movement destroys souls.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 05:15 PM   #11
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

So now Reform is morally equivalent to terrorism ?

I am embarassed to belong to the same branch of Judaism that you do. What a chillul lubavitch. Enough said.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 05:25 PM   #12
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

I didn't say that. I just made a comment and did not draw any comparisons. You chose to put words in my mouth.

However, I was just speaking about this issue with someone who reminded me that the Frierdiker Rebbe (from "our" branch of Judaism, perhaps?) said 'yemach shmo v'zichro' about Moses Mendelssohn, and said that he was destroying the Jewish people, and other such things.

Additionally, in his Igros Kodesh, there is a letter from the Frierdiker Rebbe to a bochur who asked about his obligation to forego learning to help bring Jewish children back to Judaism. In very harsh words, the Frierdiker Rebbe writes that if children were being drowned and thrown to pits to be eaten by snakes, no one would have a question about foregoing learning...how much more so when Jewish children are being led astray and their neshamos being destroyed.

These tell me there is something terribly wrong with the Reform movement, and a movement that does something worse than kills Jewish children physically is surely an evil movement.

Last edited by Chabadnika; 12-22-2004 at 05:45 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 05:56 PM   #13
daas
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp
I can't say it any other way. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are "evil". For example, I disagree with you and I don't think that you are evil. There are plenty of other words that you can use when speaking about people or movements that you don't agree with -like "misguided", "uninformed", "illogical", "confused", "extremist", "simplistic", "poorly thought out", "hypocritical" and so on.

When you use the same word for ****** as you do for the Reform movement, you equate the two and discredit your own arguments. Just like when PETA, the animal activist group, spoke about how slaughtering chickens was evil and comparable to the Holocaust, they lost all credibility in the eyes of the public and quickly pulled that slogan from their ads.

When presidents talk about evil, such as in Reagan's speech about Russia, they are generally discussing tyrranies that result in the death of millions of people and loss of basic human rights. Putting every single movement whose agenda is not in sync with you own into that category may make you feel better, more self-righteous, whatever, but it will eliminate you from intelligent discourse.
I think you are confusing the "movement" with the people that belong to it.
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Unread 12-22-2004, 09:10 PM   #14
BaisHamikdashBa
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

What does the reform movement do? Change the Torah and then convince others too - tears people away from torah in a way that the people they tear away dont even know its wrong....
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Unread 12-23-2004, 01:34 AM   #15
Esrog
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Mcp, you said, “Save the term ‘evil’ for ****** and those who murder innocents.” You also said “When presidents talk about evil, such as in Reagan's speech about Russia, they are generally discussing tyrranies that result in the death of millions of people.” Mcp, you seem to think that the term “evil” applies mainly to people who murdered millions. Evidently, in your eyes those who murder less than ****** and Stalin are not evil because they are “under the limit.” Mcp, if the Reform Movement convinced you of this, then even what the Reform Movement did to YOU was evil.

You also said, “Your extreme position and inflammatory rhetoric will be counterproductive and you run the risk of making a fool out of yourself. Be careful.” This is an inflammatory and threatening comment on your part. You are making a threat. You are telling us to watch it. You are not talking about truth. You are telling us there will be consequences if we tell the truth.

Your comment is reminiscent of when the Reform Movement threatened to get contributors to Chabad to cut off funds if the Rebbe did not stop speaking out on the “Who is a Jew” issue.

You keep alluding to what lots of people think. The truth is not determined by a popular fad, taking a poll, measuring which way the wind is blowing or enlisting the advice of a public relations consultant. The Torah that G-d gave on Mount Sinai does not change because somebody thinks I need a different style of shoes or a different fashion of coat. G-d says, “I the Eternal have not changed.” All through Deuteronomy G-d says over and over and over and over and over that this is the Law, this will always be the Law, it will never change ever ever ever ever ever.

You say “Be careful.” Just non-Orthodox mohelim who amputate babies’ penises need not be careful. They may continue to use the clamp.

It is those who cause terrible harm to human beings because they do not understand G-d’s law who need to be more careful.

Mcp, I want to specifically respond to your post #6. Let’s really examine here what you said. You said:

“Hey Esrog- calm down.”

There is something extremely disturbing about someone saying we should be calm about the amputation of little babies’ penises. You do not want to hear about this. You do not want to be confused with the facts. You then said:

“I am not knowledgeable enough about circumcision details to agree or disagree with what you write.”

What I said about clamps being absolutely forbidden was based on what Orthodox scholars and mohelim taught me, including a leading Lubavitch mohel who in fact performed the bris instead of the non-Orthodox circumciser I referred to. So you do not have to worry about agreeing or disagreeing. It is not for you to decide. It is for true Orthodox mohelim and Orthodox rabbinical scholars to decide. You then said,

“Maybe their way is more painful than it needs to be- I don't know.”

That’s right Mcp. You don’t know. You then said,

“I am not sure why you went on this whole bris milah tangent. My point is that the difference between reform and orthodox is that the latter believes in the absolute Divinity of the Torah and in strict adherence to tradition and the former do not. That's it.”

No, Mcp. That is not it. The difference between Reform and Orthodox is not only in beliefs but in action. Judaism is not about going to a social hall and having a nice feeling. It is about action. DO THE RIGHT THING. Specific actions G-d instructed us to follow properly in all their details. One of those actions is circumcision. Circumcision is not a “tangent” as you call it. It is absolutely central to Judaism and if a movement cannot practice circumcision properly, it is absolutely not a Jewish movement. All circumcisions involving clamps, whether the clamp is used “properly” or not violate Jewish Law, as all true Orthodox mohelim will tell you. And discussing that is not a tangent. The clamp breaks Jewish Law and the Law of circumcision specifically and therefore undermines the Covenant. You then said,

“It is a difference in religious opinion.”

No, Mcp, it is not just opinion. When G-d gave the Torah to Moses, Moses did not say to G-d, “Welp, You have your opinion, I have mine, to-may-to, to-mah-to.” Also, Thomas Jefferson, who helped found American democracy, was not G-d. You then said,

“The words ‘evil’, ‘butchers’, ‘sickness’ ( chabadnika’s post) are inflammatory and just make you sound like a fanatic.”

Mcp, “butcher” is a term used by a prominent Lubavitch rabbi with whom I spoke who so described a non-Orthodox circumciser who openly admitted using a barbaric clamp that even the FDA warned against. That Lubavitch rabbi was not a fanatic. In fact, the non-Orthodox circumciser was a fanatic who ranted and raved against Lubavitch when I and others successfully convinced a woman to not use that non-Orthodox circumciser and to instead use a genuine mohel, who happened to be a Lubavitcher. My heart grieves, grieves mind you, for that non-Orthodox mohel’s loss of $500. (The Lubavitcher mohel who ultimately performed the bris did it for free, by the way.) The Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman, in the Tanya used the term “evil” constantly both in reference to certain behavior and in reference to the entire evil inclination. The evil inclination is evil. The Alter Rebbe was not inflammatory. You then said,

“The average person gets turned off very quickly when hearing this high-school drama stuff.”

Mcp, sometimes people need to hear things they would rather not hear. Even you. Cutting off babies’ penises is not “high school drama stuff.” It is evil. This is a very important moment in your life even if it is unpleasant for you. Every moment we continue talking about this you are forced to pay attention to aspects of the Reform Movement that are truly barbaric and which you obviously need to think about more. I am sorry if good feelings do not come to you according to your precise time schedule. You then said,

“Save the term ‘evil’ for ****** and those who murder innocents.”

Are you Moses? Who are you to decide the definition of evil? Only murder is wrong? There is only one commandment? ****** and those who murder innocents are not the only people behaving in an evil way. Torah is replete with mention of evil. Not only mass murderers are evil. But let me ask you a question. Do you know why ****** did what he did? For many reasons of course, but one of them was that he and the Nazis were influenced by the teachings of Friedrich Nietzsche of the 19th Century. Nietzsche’s opinions were evil and they led directly to the Holocaust. Words matter. Words count. Words can kill. Would you defend a Nietzsche? Nietzsche did not, to my knowledge, advocate killing Jews. It is just that his philosophy led to that. Nietzsche was not ******. It is just that six million Jews later, Nietzsche’s ideas turned out to be not such a good thing. You then said,

“If you disagree with someone about how they practice Judaism, there is no need to degrade the discussion into good vs. evil- it just makes you sound like a nut.”

Recognizing the distinction between good and evil is not a degradation. It is an elevation. Calling people who have achieved this “nuts” is the degradation. You need to be honest with yourself here, Mcp. You just called me a “nut” despite denying it in your very next sentence. You then said,

“Which I am sure that you are not- you are probably a normal, opionated person with a strong belief system who just hasn't learned how to express opinions in a socially acceptable way.”

This is a rude, condescending, hypocritical comment full of hostility and ostracism. In fact, much of what you say is all about ostracizing those who disagree with you. At any rate, the only way to always say things that are “socially acceptable” is to only say what other people want to hear, no matter how false it is, no matter how much of a lie.

I have never let social acceptance get in the way of my telling the truth.

And I am not interested in social acceptance by the butchers of the Reform Movement. I do not care what they think of me.

If Abraham had been interested in social acceptance and what everyone else thought of him there never would have been a Jewish people. He was called “ivri” — a “Hebrew.” “Ivri” means to cross over. Abraham crossed the Euphrates River. He stood on one side and the whole world stood on the other. The whole world said there were many gods. He said there was only One, even though that was not socially acceptable.

Abraham’s father was actually an idol maker. One day Abraham destroyed his father’s idols. There was no “You have your opinion, I have mine” about it.

Neither have all the great righteous Jews in history been interested in social acceptance. Jeremiah was always getting arrested and thrown into a pit for telling the truth about evil which was not socially acceptable.

You don’t like the word “evil.” What do you think G-d’s instructions are all about — good and so-so?

If you were to eat a kosher sandwich, would you put bacon on it? Why not? Wouldn’t leaving out the bacon be awfully unfair and exclusionary? Do you think that putting bacon in a kosher sandwich makes the sandwich still half-kosher? Half and half, fifty-fifty, even Steven! Right!? That’s like asking if someone is half-pregnant. Why not compromise and make the two sides equal? We’ll make a delicious kosher sandwich. Then we’ll pour greasy pig gravy all over it. That way it’ll be half-kosher. Fair is fair! In fact, the bacon makes the sandwich completely traif and forbidden to eat. There must be no bacon in the kosher sandwich. None. There must be zero tolerance for bacon in the kosher sandwich.

One can not say, “Hey, I respect Lubavitch, so now you have to respect the evils of Reform. Look it. I did you a favor so now you have to do me one.” Or to put it in the context of food again, one can not say, “I’ll agree to eat a kosher sandwich, if you agree to eat a bacon sandwich.” Or: “I attended your wedding, so now you have to attend my wedding to a shiksa. Besides, after she memorized the ten best seller list, my Reform rabbi gave her a Judaism certificate.” It doesn’t work that way. There is no “parity” or equality of status between good and evil.

Telling people that they may not use the word “evil” — that you, Mcp, personally forbid it — is a very poor way to get rid of evil in the world. This is similar to ******ian instructions to “See no evil” etc. You say we are not allowed to use the word evil. Who do you think you are? Then you say,

“I am much more interested in hearing about the practices that you may disagree with than whether or not people who disagree with you are ‘evil’.”

Mcp, you are contradicting yourself. Earlier in this very same post of yours (post #6) you state that you are not interested in talking about the practice of bris milah, which you describe as a “tangent.” I didn’t say people who disagree with me are evil. I said the Reform Movement is evil which it is. Do you belong to a Reform institution? If so, leave it and then you won’t take my criticism of the evil of the Reform Movement personally. You then say,

“And for those of you who still don't understand my opinion, try to recall how the Rebbe reacted when presented with labels such as Reform, Conservative etc.- if you remember, he would always become upset and insist that we are all just Jews.”

Who is attacking Jews, Mcp? It is the Reform Movement that is being criticized here. If you are really against the use of labels, why did you use terms such as “nut,” “fool” and “fanatic” and suggest (as you did in your post #8) that criticizing the Reform Movement “will eliminate you from intelligent discourse”? Who do you think is more intelligent — the great luminaries of the Jewish People, the prodigies, the seers, the miracle workers, the great rabbinical scholars, all the great tzaddikim or…..you?

It is you who are attacking Jews.

By the way, let me add that circumcision clamps are barbaric and their use amounts to assault on a child. It is actual child abuse. “Barbaric,” “assault,” and “child abuse.” Those are three more terms you can put into your list as official Censor-In-Chief. Bottom line? You are trying to SHUT US UP.

Let me also remind you that the Rebbe, to whom you refer, was vehement in his call that a Jew in Israel should be defined under the Law of Return according to Halacha — Jewish Law. This is the “Mihu Yehudi” — “Who is a Jew?” issue. The Rebbe was not intimidated because people in the Reform Movement hysterically turned against him over this. The Rebbe did not care about social acceptance.

Again, Mcp, in this discussion of the Reform Movement you called circumcision, which is absolutely central to Judaism, a “tangent.” I will ask you:

IS

CIRCUMCISION

A

TANGENT?
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Unread 12-23-2004, 12:14 PM   #16
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

This thread is getting scary. Esrog, I am not sure if we can continue our discussion. Can you name three topics of halacha ( not minghag or hidur mitzvah) that you can disagree with someone upon without resorting to calling the opinion that differs from yours "evil" ? This is not a question about Reform , the movement or the people. This is a question to see if you can conceive of disagreeing with someone on a topic that you feel strongly about without being hostile. If you can't, then we will not be able to continue this thread. Sorry.
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Unread 12-23-2004, 12:21 PM   #17
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Why do you assume that people who think the Reform movement is evil also think others who disagree with their halachic opinions are evil? The Reform movement and, for example, the Litvish or Sefardic communities, are not comparable in any way, shape or form. I cannot think off the top of my head of real halachic issues on which Lubavitch differs from any other legitimate Torah community, but that doesn't mean I would call it evil.

You still haven't internalized the difference between the Reform movement and other movements or communities in Judaism. Were the Frierdiker Rebbe's words not enough?
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Unread 12-23-2004, 12:30 PM   #18
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

The thread might be getting scary to you, but maybe you B"H haven't had first-hand experience with the horrors of the Reform movement (or another deviant movement that has destroyed Judaism and Jewish souls). For example, how would you feel if you were becoming frum and realized that you weren't Jewish according to halacha and had to go through the process of an Orthodox conversion? And that's a relatively easy thing to fix, in contrast to the many other issues which are not so simple.

Those of us who have relatives or friends who have been entrapped and harmed by deviant movements claiming to be Jewish are not so easy to forgive groups that continue to destroy Jewish homes and lives.

And for the others who B"H have no such painful stories to speak of, the call should be, "Eis la'asos laHashem, heifeiro Torasecha!"-"It is a time to act for Hashem, for they have voided Your Torah!" (Tehillim/Psalms 119:126)
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Unread 12-23-2004, 12:57 PM   #19
The Eighth King
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp
So now Reform is morally equivalent to terrorism?

I am embarassed to belong to the same branch of Judaism that you do. What a chillul lubavitch. Enough said.
There are two types of evil. There is revealed evil and concealed evil. The revealed evil is the lesser evil of the two. This is because it is clearly apparent to all that it is evil. However, the evil which is concealed is actually more destructive and deadly than the revealed evil which is immediate and therefore discernable and stoppable. This concealed evil is called "darkness" (see Derech Chayim). However, even the evil of this "darkness" is not as bad as the time in which we live which is a "doubled and quadrupled darkness". That is, not only are the evils of the world not revealed and readily discernable as evil, but many people actually consider them to be good. Hence, I proudly stand up and commend those who take the reform (and all other wicked) movements and reveal their evils, thus removing them from the category of concealed evil and bringing them into the readily avoidable category of revealed evil.
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Unread 12-28-2004, 10:09 AM   #20
Esrog
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Speaking of which, something I wanted to get into is the case of the Reform “rabbi” Fred Neulander, who hired hitmen and paid them $30,000 to murder his wife Carol — she was beaten to death with pipes on November 1, 1994 — so he could pursue an affair with a non-Jewish radio host, Elaine Soncini, who he actually first began physically seducing while visiting her to offer comfort a week after the funeral of her departed husband.

Neulander was the Senior “rabbi” of Reform Temple M’Kor Shalom of Cherry Hill, New Jersey — South Jersey’s largest Reform temple. (So much for the “shalom” that one Reform temple after another has to include in its name.) Neulander was also a shallow social climber who had married “up” in the person of his wife Carol, who was from wealthy Woodmere, N.Y.

Although divorce is permitted in Judaism, Neulander wasn't thinking too clearly because he felt it would be too difficult and problematic for his children and family, synagogue and community. So instead of divorcing his wife, he had her bumped off. He had told Soncini cryptically that by Soncini’s birthday everything would be fixed and that he and Soncini would finally be together with his wife finally out of the picture.

In the sick world of moral relativism and situational ethics that is the wasteland of the Reform movement, Neulander had to get rid of his wife by Soncini's birthday because he had given Soncini a solemn promise. Carol Neulander was beaten to death six weeks before Soncini's birthday. And who could possibly forget someone’s birthday? Neulander had also written Soncini beautiful love letters and poems. Neulander was maintaining a false masquerade of possessing ethics and refinement. Just like the Reform movement. But then, what could possibly be wrong with someone or something imbued with art and poetry?

By the early ‘90s Neulander had become a compulsive philanderer (otherwise known as a compulsive adulterer) and particularly exploitive in this regard of emotionally vulnerable people, Soncini among them. One reason Neulander thought he could get away with marrying Soncini after his wife’s death without communal embarrassment was that he had helped Soncini through a Reform quickie fake conversion. The fact that she was subsequently committing adultery with the man who “converted” her, whom she knew was married, was just a slight footnote to that so-called “conversion.” And not to rub in the lack of her virtue or anything, but she only agreed to testify against Neulander after learning that he had other girlfriends.

After the murder, Neulander actually performed a wedding ceremony for the man he had hired to kill his wife, blessing the union in the same Cherry Hill living room where Carol Neulander's blood and brains had splattered the walls.

Neulander was emotionless the night of the murder after it happened. His own children testified against him. “His clothing was unwrinkled, his tie was neatly tied, he wasn’t breathing heavily, he wasn’t crying or showing any outward sign of grief or remorse at all,” said Matthew Neulander, Fred’s son, during the trial, which ended with a conviction that will keep Neulander behind bars until he is almost 90 years old.
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Unread 12-28-2004, 12:15 PM   #21
donny
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Esrog you are absolutly right in the posts you are writing in this thread.By the way Fred Neulander became close to Chabad now that he is in prison.
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Unread 12-28-2004, 04:32 PM   #22
mcp
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

It is all so unnecessary. Esrog, there are plenty of orthodox people (and rabbis) who have done terrible things and your post about Fred Neulander doesn't reflect on the reform community any more than the Boruch Lamm scandal did on the orthodox community. Chabadnika and Esrog and everyone else who has had bad experiences with reform- that is very sad for you. I have had bad experiences with reform, conservative and orthodox groups and have had positive experiences with them as well. Not being able to disagree on issues of halacha in a civil, polite way is an unfortunate personality trait.

There is so much divisiveness between people and nations in general, I think it is terrible to encourage such blatant hatred for others who are within your own religion. Conservative rabbis are now prohibiting their congregants from eating Rubashkin's meat based on the Peta video and the outcry that followed. Everyone thinks they are better than everyone else. When does this stop ? When do we say enough of the stupid "I'm closer to G-d than you are" attitude that poisoned so many relationships ?Oh, I know- when "they" finally realize that "we" are right...
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Unread 12-28-2004, 05:49 PM   #23
Chabadnika
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp
Chabadnika and Esrog and everyone else who has had bad experiences with reform- that is very sad for you. I have had bad experiences with reform, conservative and orthodox groups and have had positive experiences with them as well. Not being able to disagree on issues of halacha in a civil, polite way is an unfortunate personality trait.

There is so much divisiveness between people and nations in general, I think it is terrible to encourage such blatant hatred for others who are within your own religion. Conservative rabbis are now prohibiting their congregants from eating Rubashkin's meat based on the Peta video and the outcry that followed. Everyone thinks they are better than everyone else. When does this stop ? When do we say enough of the stupid "I'm closer to G-d than you are" attitude that poisoned so many relationships ?Oh, I know- when "they" finally realize that "we" are right...
It is not "sad" that we have had bad experiences with the Reform movement. Puppies getting hit by cars is sad. A movement which was created to destroy Judaism and Jews is evil.

Everyone has had bad experiences with different groups of people, but the difference between Reform/Conservative and Orthodoxy is that the former movements are against Gd and His Torah, and the latter is not. The movements of Reform and Conservative are bad. They are evil. This is not me talking. This is the Frierdiker Rebbe talking. If you choose to disagree with him, then that's something you're certainly entitled to, but I (and many others) believe to be foolish.

I do not disagree with these movements about halacha; I don't even begin to debate halacha since they aren't even movements of Judaism and don't understand what halacha is. They are movements of Jews doing the wrong thing, the bad thing, and are not the least bit concerned with halacha.

I guess you would have also thought that Pinchas was divisive and unable to disagree about halacha in a civil, polite way, since he stopped a Jewish man to get away with having an affair with a non-Jewish woman in public by killing them both by sword. Gd would disagree with you, but I guess you're entitled to disagree with Him too.

And I'm glad that Conservative 'rabbis' decided to forbid Rubashkin's meat; that means about as much as PETA forbidding Rubashkin's meat, or Chuck my mailman forbidding Rubashkin's meat. Did you know that the Nazis YS"V also forbade shechita? Did that make it treif? Well, if someone decided that Rubashkin's meat is not kosher, then it must be true. Forget about all the Orthodox rabbis who said that it was fine, a Conservative 'rabbi' (who may be a he or a she) or a Reform 'rabbi' (who may be a he or a she or a non-Jewish he or a non-Jewish she) said it wasn't-then it must be even more true.

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Unread 12-28-2004, 06:25 PM   #24
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

Donny, that's interesting. What more can you tell about that? Chabad just visits Neulander or he is really becoming close to Chabad? Any intelligent prisoner would want to impress the parole board. Although certainly in Torah action supercedes intention. How involved is he? Do you know what he is learning? I hope his interest — and hopefully remorse — are sincere, and not just another attempt on his part to manipulate and use those around him.
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Unread 12-28-2004, 09:16 PM   #25
Esrog
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Re: Reform Movement Horror Stories

MCP, in your post #3 you said, “I'm sorry- I think this whole topic is inappropriate.” You have also repeatedly told us that we are not allowed to speak of evil. Then in your post #16 you say, “Esrog, I am not sure if we can continue our discussion.” Why would that disappoint me since all you have done is tell us to shut up? I asked you to tell me to shut up? In that post (#16) you accused me of being “hostile.” But it was you who earlier in this thread called us “nut,” “fool” and “fanatic.” It was you who, in your post #8, denigrated the intelligence of those who criticize the Reform movement. Are you sure you want to go down that road, MCP? Since the intelligence of great Torah scholars is apparently unimportant to you, are you sure you want a secular measure of intelligence here? I have had my I.Q. measured. I will be glad to share it with you if you are sure we lack intelligence. Just say, “Okay, Esrog, what’s your I.Q.?” I will be glad to tell you.

You then said in your post #16, “This is a question to see if you can conceive of disagreeing with someone on a topic that you feel strongly about without being hostile. If you can’t, then we will not be able to continue this thread. Sorry.” Incredibly, MCP, you are not in charge of whether we continue this thread, which you have now twice told us must be cancelled.

Your definition of “hostile” is 1) anyone who speaks of evil, 2) anyone who dares to say the Reform movement is bad and not just “different” and 3) anyone who doesn’t take orders from you. You have been disruptive, hostile and dictatorial, which is a very poor defense of the Reform movement.

See, you don’t get it. You think this is all a discussion of democracy, egalitarianism, moral relativism, Descartes, Camus, and Anglo-Saxon juridical prudence. To you, everyone has a right to their opinion until they find out the truth. This one thinks two and two is five. That one thinks two and two is three. But no one is allowed to say that it is really four and not three or five. If someone dares say three and five are flat out wrong, they are violating your sacred democratic principles so they must shut up — in the interest of egalitarianism and democracy of course.

Let me give you another example of this in the realm of the secular. A while back two spacecraft landed on Mars after a journey of tens of millions of miles. They both landed within a few hundred feet of their intended destinations. Technically, this was an extraordinary achievement. The measurement of wind speed on Mars, the fine tuning of transverse rockets, determining the exact moment and power of the firing of the retro rockets and engine burns and many other factors went into the success. There was no room for “Welp, we all have a right to our different opinions, so we will vote and then compromise. Half the scientists want the engine fired at this power and the other half want it fired at that power. So we’ll do it in the middle.” Had that been the case, the craft would never have gotten to Mars at all. There was one right thing to do and all the alternative views were wrong. Not just to-may-to/to-mah-to. Not just democratically “different.” Wrong.

Now I must draw your attention to something deeper. This is the Chabad Talk website. Do you notice people agreeing with you on this thread? You yourself have said that you will not be able to continue on this thread (your post #16). Then you come back for more. Why? You are speaking to a group of people who know more in their pinky finger about Judaism than you do. So why even continue to denigrate, attack, be abusive and order people around? What draws you repeatedly back to this thread?

I will tell you. Your mouth is yammering a mile a minute. Your mind is yammering a mile a minute. But far, far away there is this little voice inside you, your soul, that is trying to get a word in edgewise while these other voices within you are trying to shout it down. The longer you stay on this thread the longer you will hear things you don’t want to hear and not once will you say anything to convince us that Reform is okay. Therefore, the only possible reason you are here is that your soul wants you to continue hearing about the evils of the Reform movement that your mind does not want to hear. Your continued presence on this thread, under the circumstances, is clear evidence that your soul, and the rest of you, are of two different minds.

You say that this description of the evils of the Reform movement is “off-putting” (your post #3). And yet you are continually drawn to this discussion.
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