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Unread 04-28-2009, 08:56 PM   #26
Torah613
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For simple peirush hatfilla, Abudraham is good (I think there is a story with the Rashab to that effect).There are others also that deal with tefilla on the simple level.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 03:25 AM   #27
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MTC, do you think it means an actual meditation there? In context, it's talking about folks who aren't so shayach to meditation. I think that although it uses the word hisbonenus, it means simply thinking consciously, being fully aware, of the meaning of the words as one says them.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 07:19 AM   #28
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Kehos uses the word meditation in the old translation, but its true that hisbonenus could be translated as "concentration," or "thinking about what one is doing." In any event, hisbonenus in this chapter means exactly what it means in the first 11 or so chapters when the Rashab is explaining the ideal path to proper davening - proper learning of chassidus, meditation (or deep thinking) on the concepts one learned, bringing about an effect on one's emotions through that meditation, bringing into mind some general kavanos in terms of ahava, yira and bittul, and then ultimately davening with all of that in mind according to the themes and meanings of each section in davening.

A young bochur (Chapter 14) hasn't had the time yet to do enough learning and has not achieved a level of maturity where he can do all of that. A Baal Osek (Chapter 16) just does not have the time to do a serious learning every day or to spend the time during davening neccesary to do all of this throughout. He could be a rather brilliant person, just one who is in a massive rush to catch the bus into town. He could be a clever person, but one who is not learned in chassidus. But the Rashab points out that any of these who can add even a moment or two to his davening, "acquires life for his soul" that can last through the whole day of work.

In any event, my statement was that the Rashab recommends focusing on perush hamilos when one cannot focus on all the deeper stuff. I suggested one constructive way to accomplish that is to spend a minute or two on one brochah in the Amidah, and from personal experience I can say it has worked for me. Are you advocating people (who only have that one or two minutes) should do otherwise?
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Unread 04-29-2009, 07:38 AM   #29
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it's very easy to fall in fantasies and dimioinos
IMHO, this 2,3 minutes per brocho,few minority of ppl are shaiach to this kind of davening (and most ppl would not publish it)
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Unread 04-29-2009, 08:07 AM   #30
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MTC, my point is that I don't think that hisbonenus in this context refers to intellectually reflecting. From the context, I think it simply means taking the time to say each word slowly and be fully aware of the basic meaning of the word as one says it. This alone takes plenty of time. This is the meaning of "davenen mit pirush hamillos."

However, stopping and reflecting on the precise meaning of the words for several minutes would seem to run the risk of coming up with odd interpretations of one's own that the Rebbe Rashab rails against.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:52 AM   #31
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I wrote up a whole long answer which I decided not to post. Let me just say it like this: there is obviously a line between perush hamilos and full-on hisbonenus during davening. The line is difficult to pin down, but I think it is safe to say that focusing on perush hamilos can take time and may require stopping to think every few words to keep the idea going. Otherwise, you're not meditating on perush hamilos, your just talking slowly.

I think the same chilluk troubles a lot of bochurim in yeshivah when trying to distinguish between Girsah and Iyun.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 01:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
it's very easy to fall in fantasies and dimioinos
IMHO, this 2,3 minutes per brocho,few minority of ppl are shaiach to this kind of davening (and most ppl would not publish it)
I don't pretend to be someone who spend an hour on shemonah esrei, let alone with proper concentration. I don't spend an hour davening the whole shachris most days, and certainly not with concentration. But we all have our moments, and we're all shiach to try.

\I do think that most people, with a little bit of thought, are shiach to spend 1-3 minutes on one brochoh. Just one, not each of them. Are you telling me that you've never spent a couple of minutes silently davening that a business deal should go well? or that various loved ones should be healed? or that moshiach should come? So take a week when you're feeling inspired, and try it...
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Unread 04-29-2009, 03:35 PM   #33
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I don't pretend to be someone who spend an hour on shemonah esrei, let alone with proper concentration. I don't spend an hour davening the whole shachris most days, and certainly not with concentration. But we all have our moments, and we're all shiach to try.

\I do think that most people, with a little bit of thought, are shiach to spend 1-3 minutes on one brochoh. Just one, not each of them. Are you telling me that you've never spent a couple of minutes silently davening that a business deal should go well? or that various loved ones should be healed? or that moshiach should come? So take a week when you're feeling inspired, and try it...
I don't think that goes about how many minutes you spend on a particular brocho
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Unread 04-29-2009, 04:41 PM   #34
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Otherwise, you're not meditating on perush hamilos, your just talking slowly
That's what I thought thinking pirush hamillos was: Concentrating on what one is saying, so that one is talking to Hashem slowly and carefully.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 06:39 PM   #35
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It is, but sometimes when reading normally, you need to stop and make sure you've properly understood something. I think that's true for me a lot of times if there is a list of adjectives "G-d is smart, understanding, wise, kind, powerful, beautiful, eternal, splendid, foundational and majestic" sometimes you have to pause for a minute to let it sink in. If you spend six seconds on each word (not long enough to get into a fancy perush, just long enough to reflect) you're already over a minute.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 07:53 PM   #36
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It occured to me then that it would not be difficult so to daven Amidah for a full hour (which sounds like a really daunting task). Just devote 3 minutes to each of the 19 paragraphs plus 3 minutes extra in the beginning or end. 3 minutes spent thinking about the avos, or the need for a refuah, or the sound of the great shofar, doesn't seem like such an impossible task after all.
I never knew that davening with avodah was determined by the time it takes you to daven ?
Lately I started davening with more kavanah etc.. and i cant figure out why it doesnt take me so long but in any event here is what worked for me: when im davening and i reach words that i previously learnt what chassidus says on those words i think about the concept and then say that line/sentence/few words. and when i reach a section that i dont know anything about i try to just concentrate on peirush hamilos. unfortunatly as a student i dont have hrs to spend b4 davening to learbn and only then start to daven, i have 45 miutes from start to finish
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Unread 04-29-2009, 08:17 PM   #37
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I never knew that davening with avodah was determined by the time it takes you to daven ?
Well said. But I do think that most people who've been davening for a while tend to lack kavanah because they go so fast. I was told by a student of Rabbi Dubinski of Morristown that the Rabbi suggested he should daven the way he learns. Meaning read at the pace he would learn. I imagine most of us daven a good bit faster than we read the chassidus before davening, so seemingly that implies we cannot give the words of davening the same attention.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:06 PM   #38
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Imagine that you sit down with someone. And you have a conversation. And the conversation becomes really meaningful. And in this conversation, you feel that you are both helping each other. And learning about and appreciating each other. And a close bond develops.

Now imagine that this someone is Hashem. Only Hashem is so great, how can we relate.

So the Besht says, boi el hateiva, enter the "word". By entering, or allowing ourselves to personally relate to the words of davening, we connect ("tefilla" means connecting) to Hashem.
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Unread 04-30-2009, 09:10 AM   #39
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G-d is more than just a close friend. He is also our King, Father, Teacher. Our G-d. Also G-d is compared to a husband, and the Jewish people is His wife. And so on.

And in all these facets, we can connect to Him by entering the words.


And the words of davening reflect, not only our connection to G-d, but also His connection to us, describing His interaction with us and the world. So it's like having a two-way conversation. And by entering the words, we are feeling it, and it becomes part of us. And there is then a deep and real connection with G-d.
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Unread 04-30-2009, 10:05 PM   #40
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Well said. But I do think that most people who've been davening for a while tend to lack kavanah because they go so fast. I was told by a student of Rabbi Dubinski of Morristown that the Rabbi suggested he should daven the way he learns. Meaning read at the pace he would learn. I imagine most of us daven a good bit faster than we read the chassidus before davening, so seemingly that implies we cannot give the words of davening the same attention.
If I davened the way I read anything in my mother tongue, which unfortunately is not Hebrew, it would take me 10 minutes to daven Shacharis.

I have heard that the kavana is more important than saying the words.
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Unread 04-30-2009, 10:52 PM   #41
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If I davened the way I read anything in my mother tongue, which unfortunately is not Hebrew, it would take me 10 minutes to daven Shacharis.
Reading is different than learning. Learning means you read slow enough to "chew on things" as you read them. And also means you are actively phrasing as you go.

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I have heard that the kavana is more important than saying the words.
That's a difficult statement to catch in context and may be different for those of the female persuasian. Certainly one has not fulfilled the mitzvah of shemah if one does not say every single word.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 04:51 AM   #42
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If I davened the way I read anything in my mother tongue, which unfortunately is not Hebrew, it would take me 10 minutes to daven Shacharis.
How fast do you read/speak Hebrew? If I davened the way I read Yiddish, I'd be much better off. As it is, unless I make a concentrated effort to stop myself, I'll daven at the speed I speak Hebrew and be finished with Shacharit in ten minutes- hareini to aleinu- and 20 on Shabbat. Kind of useful when you have to run, but not the way that you should daven.

Also, peirush hamilot- into English- doesn't help much when the Hebrew is perfectly understandable. But maybe try to do teshuva while you daven- then it might take 40 minutes just for Ma'ariv. Now go imagine that you'll go to gehinnom if you don't daven well...

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I have heard that the kavana is more important than saying the words.
No- the eichut is more important than the kamut. You can think all you want- but if you don't say the words, you haven't davened.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 12:10 PM   #43
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Reading is different than learning. Learning means you read slow enough to "chew on things" as you read them. And also means you are actively phrasing as you go.
But that becomes being mechadesh, learning.
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That's a difficult statement to catch in context and may be different for those of the female persuasian. Certainly one has not fulfilled the mitzvah of shemah if one does not say every single word.
Right. I have been told that it's more important to for me to feel what I'm saying then daven the entire siddur.
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How fast do you read/speak Hebrew? If I davened the way I read Yiddish, I'd be much better off. As it is, unless I make a concentrated effort to stop myself, I'll daven at the speed I speak Hebrew and be finished with Shacharit in ten minutes- hareini to aleinu- and 20 on Shabbat. Kind of useful when you have to run, but not the way that you should daven.
Pretty fast once I know it by heart. It would take me 25 min to daven Shacharis if I davened everything.
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No- the eichut is more important than the kamut. You can think all you want- but if you don't say the words, you haven't davened.
You mean the opposite.

My Rav told me I'm only chayav at the most for brachos, baruch she'amar-yishtabach, kriyas shema, shmoneh esrei.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 01:11 PM   #44
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Boruch Sheeomar and Yishtabach without Ashrei at least???
Assuming you are a female - the list is still wrong.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 04:16 PM   #45
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But that becomes being mechadesh, learning.
Perhaps in some sense. But I doubt very much that the Rashab was advocating people pay less attention to the page to stay out of trouble. I read the Rashab as cautioning against those who want to reach the level Remez, Drush and Sod in their treatment of the text. But "perush hamilos" in my mind, means pshat in the milos.

Also, and this was dropped from the conversation above, but I also mentioned the idea of stopping to think about specific personal cases where one needs a certain brochoh. Asking for a refuah, for help doing teshuvah, or for wisdom in the appropriate places.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 04:18 PM   #46
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Assuming you are a female - the list is still wrong.
Listen, a Rav is a Rav. If she got a psak, at least pretend to think something was left out by accident.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 04:48 PM   #47
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Why should I pretend? Assuming the Rav who told her that is qualified (not a given, as often "My Rav" means like "My mashpia"...), she could go back and ask again. I am assuming she got it wrong, not the Rov.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 05:37 PM   #48
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I read the Rashab as cautioning against those who want to reach the level Remez, Drush and Sod in their treatment of the text. But "perush hamilos" in my mind, means pshat in the milos.
You seem to be advocating that one do this during davenen; however, IMHO this is not a time to figure out the meaning of the words. That should be done in preparation for davenen. During davenen one should be focussed on talking to Hashem.

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I also mentioned the idea of stopping to think about specific personal cases where one needs a certain brochoh. Asking for a refuah, for help doing teshuvah, or for wisdom in the appropriate places.
Did anyone object to this idea? That was not the issue.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 06:41 PM   #49
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Okay, let me distill this down to one question. In your reading of the Rashab, is it appropriate for a person who has done no specific learning that day to prepare for this passage, to read the words "Atah Gibor L'Olam Hashem M'chayeh Meisim B'Rachamim Rabim" and reflect for a minute or so on (1) How powerful G-d is; (2) How Hashem has the ability to resurect the dead; and (3) How merciful Hashem is in doing so? By reflect I mean simply wonder at these ideas the way one might wonder at a beautiful sunset or a clever turn of phrase.

I think yes, all the person is doing is stopping to let perush hamilos sink in.

I believe the trouble starts when the person starts answering (1) Why Gibor rather than Godol; (2) What's the gematria of Mechayeh Meisim; (3) If Rachimim Rabim is like Ahavah Rabah.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 02:30 PM   #50
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Pretty fast once I know it by heart. It would take me 25 min to daven Shacharis if I davened everything.
Not bad...

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You mean the opposite.
Eichut=quality; kamut=quantity. If I said eichut is more important than kamut (which I believe I did) then I meant what I said.

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My Rav told me I'm only chayav at the most for brachos, baruch she'amar-yishtabach, kriyas shema, shmoneh esrei.
My rav (aka KSA) said that b'shat hadchak brachot, baruch sheamar, ashrei, yishtabach, birchot k"s, k"s, shemoneh esrei, shir shel yom, aleinu. That is, if I remember his ruling correctly.

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Boruch Sheeomar and Yishtabach without Ashrei at least???
Assuming you are a female - the list is still wrong.
I've heard that females aren't chayavin birchot k"s- not sure where that was made up/ written (-in case it's a rav who said it). But what are you referring to?

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Listen, a Rav is a Rav. If she got a psak, at least pretend to think something was left out by accident.
And if she forgot a bit of what the Rav said, being that she's human?

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I think yes, all the person is doing is stopping to let perush hamilos sink in.
Agreed.

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I believe the trouble starts when the person starts answering (1) Why Gibor rather than Godol; (2) What's the gematria of Mechayeh Meisim; (3) If Rachimim Rabim is like Ahavah Rabah.
Hey, those questions are interesting! However, the answers should be looked up- not made up b'shat hatfila.
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