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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:10 PM   #1
Jac
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While on the topic of farbrengens, what's with the drinking situation? Why do bochurim do it? i know the reasons, and mostly it makes sense--except that it doesn't appear to me that most bochurim stick to the Rebbe's limits on wine. And why can't girls? (Purely theoretical, fear not, i doubt the girls would enjoy the drinking!) I don't buy the theory that it's only the males that have a hard time opening up, not one bit!

Last edited by Jac; 04-23-2002 at 09:15 PM.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:10 PM   #2
blackhorse
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If you look in the Shulchan Aruch, you'll find something there about girls/ladies drinking. I saw it the other day in there..cannot remember exactly where it was...
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:11 PM   #3
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Guys, this board was meant to discuss and understand Lubavitch Minhagim, i.e. customs we do have, not the weird Minhagim we don't have!
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:12 PM   #4
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the reason why girls don't take l'chaim's at farbregens is because it is heipech hatznius and could lead to pritzus (imagine girls walking down the street drunk after a fargrengen -- not exactly what torah advises). but Jack, i don't mean to offend you -- there's nothing wrong w/ the question, but i think you're better off sending such questions to one of us privately, and keep these "musings" of the net... but you're q about wine is interesting -- did the rebbe actually make limits on wine? why not create a new thread for it.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:12 PM   #5
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"Guys, this board was meant to discuss and understand Lubavitch Minhagim, i.e. customs we do have, not the weird Minhagim we don't have!"
Lol. but why DONT' we have it? Are you saying that it's a lubavitcher CUSTOM for bochurimg to drink? (I"m not being sarcastic, i'm asking seriously.)

Col, of course the rebbe made limits on how much liquor bochurim can consume! In fact, he spoke very strongly about it, once even saying that whoever does consume more (and theyr'e under a certain age) should not consider himself the rebbe's chossid!
About it leading to pritzus, u have a point, i guess--but forget drunk, I mean just a l'chaim or so.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:12 PM   #6
blackhorse
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I may be wrong but I think I learnt that (a married) women should not drink AT ALL without her husband there....which means not even a L'Chaim
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:13 PM   #7
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Any sources, blackhorse?

U see, we're always learning how the true purpose of a farbrengen is to come out different, to hear honest opinions about oneself that you'll never hear anywhere. So therefore, drinking comes into play--how else can they open up? So I'm just wondering about girls drinking--or are girls' farbrengens not considered REAL ones?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:14 PM   #8
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<<Col, of course the rebbe made limits on how much liquor bochurim can consume! In fact, he spoke very strongly about it, once even saying that whoever does consume more (and theyr'e under a certain age) should not consider himself the rebbe's chossid!>>

i know all about it , i thought that when you said "except that it doesn't appear to me that most bochurim stick to the rebbe's limits on WINE " - you were speaking specifically about wine - not liquor... i thought it would be interesting to discuss what the rebbe's approach to wine would be.

<<About it leading to pritzus, u have a point, i guess--but forget drunk, I mean just a l'chaim or so. >>

jack, (1) one l'chaim leads to another... and (2) when you're not used to it, even one l'chaim can get you tipsy...

and about l'chaim by Farbrengens being a custom, I don't know if that's the most proper way to define it, but it is certainly form the "darkei hachassidus" (the ways of Chassidim)
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:15 PM   #9
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Jac - I'll look it up and get back to you.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:15 PM   #10
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This answer's purely theoretical; just a guess. Maybe since women are inherently more spiritually attuned than men, L'Chaim's are simply not needed. That would run on the same lines that women don't need yarmulka or tzitzis. Otherwise, maybe it's just a use for klipas noiga. Waddaya think?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:16 PM   #11
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Lubamessianic: "This answer's purely theoretical; just a guess. Maybe since women are inherently more spiritually attuned than men, L'Chaim's are simply not needed. That would run on the same lines that women don't need yarmulka or tzitzis. Otherwise, maybe it's just a use for klipas noiga. Waddaya think?"
yea, that's the one I'm most familiar with and the one that probably makes the most sense . What you're saying, in other words, is that women don't NEED mashke. I was just wondering well, what if they DO need it to truly 'farbreng.' But I'll drop the topic, it's purely theoretical anyway and lub is pretty much correct anyway. I was just interested in hearing what e/one knew on this, since it has come up.

Thanks, col, for the clarifications.

Last edited by Jac; 12-24-2001 at 03:18 PM.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:18 PM   #12
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on December 13th, 2001, 5:33am, col wrote:
the reason why girls don't take l'chaim's at farbregens is because it is heipech hatznius

the way some men get drunk i think its pretty not tznius too. . . I mean some places by simchas beis hashoeivah or purim, you see Rabbi's throwing up in the streets. Its disgusting besides for the chillul hashem. And the same way one drink leads to another for women, one drink leads to another for men. I definitely agree with lubamess, women are just on a higher spiritual level and dont need it.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:20 PM   #13
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for the most part (and there are always exceptions), women are "open about their feelings," are communicators by nature (9 10ths of dibbur being given to them), and don't need alcohol.
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Unread 01-24-2002, 01:56 AM   #14
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L'chaim on Soda

Once at a Farbrengen (erev Shavuos 1979) the Rebbe said that a siddur and tzedaka should be given to all boys and girls who were there, and that they should say l'chaim. the Rebbe said, "All the girls in the ezras nashim should say l'chaim on soda or something like that." (from a diary of 1979)
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Unread 01-24-2002, 04:42 PM   #15
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very interesting. does this mean that the brocha, lichayim, can be given on any form of liquid? lol, maybe the bochrim should be informed of this...
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Unread 01-26-2002, 09:12 PM   #16
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The Frierdiker Rebbe once gave a talk in front of some younger bochrim (I think they were mesivta age) and he told Hanhola to give them Coke, and they all made L'Chaim on Coke. Yes - L'Chaim can be made on other liquids.
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Unread 01-27-2002, 06:18 PM   #17
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Reb Yitzchok Holtzman went in to the Rebbe for Yechidus when he was a Bochur in Kevutza during the month of Adar 5736 (1976).

One of the questions he asked the Rebbe concerned Farbrenging in modern Yeshivos, how to go about with Mashkeh etc.

The Rebbe raised both of his hands onto the table, lifted his eyes, pounded strongly onto the table, and said (Free Translation) "There is no need for Mashkeh, not even Wine, it is possible to simply Farbreng on Soda..."
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Unread 01-27-2002, 06:37 PM   #18
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Woman Drinking Mashke and L'chaim on Water

Free Translation (unedited) of the Rebbes Farbrengen Shabbos Parshas Miketz 5745 / 1984.

[In order to connect their (the womens') conference with this Farbrengen - I will give a bottle of Mashkehfrom this Farbrengen,

However, since there is a discussion in the Gemorah regarding giving wine to women, and how much more so "Yayin Saraf" (Mashkeh) - we will therefore mix the Mashkeh with water, in which case there is no problem at all, and the contrary, it's Brocha is equal to the Brocha on "Mashkeh": "Shehakol Nehiya Bidevaro"!...]

...And from one thing to another - This serves as well as an answer to those who have a problem cause they cannot forgo the "limit" of not drinking more than 4 small cups, that if they want to anyway have a "Big Shot" - they can drink as they please, not only 4 Big cups, but even an entire well... just with 1 condition - That it should be WATER!...
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Unread 02-08-2002, 12:02 AM   #19
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Have any of you guys seen a certain picture in Challenge (describing Chabad in Israel in the early years), which i remember quite clearly, of a woman pouring a girl a shot of Smirnoff, at a farby in Kfar Chabad?
i think it used to be more acceptable for girls and women to drink lechaims.
IMHO, i think liquor or wine at a women's or girls' gatherings, as long as evrybody is mature enough to handle it, adds a festive tone and yes, it does help people loosen up and get more comfortable.
Seems to me that girls have a harder time opening up at farbys than guys, if anything, especially since farbrenging for girls is not such a intrinsic part of our Chassidic education, as much as for Bochurim.
As long as lechaims at a farby are just that-and don't CH"V lead to any dependencies or problems with alcohol. that has got to be really watched and monitored by an understanding Mashpia, cuz it's scary what can happen to boys who start looking forward to thursday nights just for the mashke...
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Unread 02-10-2002, 01:48 AM   #20
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Hi-

The story is told of Chassidim of old who would pour their "Branfen", Farbreng, than proceed to pour the Mashke back in to the bottle!

Obviously we cannot compare ourselves to these great Chassidim, however we do have to take in to account the fact that it is possible to Farbreng without Mashke.

Point: Men should also try and refrain as much as possible from Mashke. As the Friediker Rebbe describes, "Mashke is a Dovor Mo'us"

There are various types of Mashke that woman tend to drink and don't make them "high" or "tipsy", they are weak and pretty sweet tasting, and woman do use them to Farbreng with.

I think the "big issue" is not what one drinks but how much, as the famous saying goes "use it - don't abuse it".

The Rebbe in his great wisdom gave us guidelines to keep to, no excuses!
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Unread 02-10-2002, 09:36 AM   #21
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Women are not allowed to drink alcoholic beverages unless in the presence of their husband or father.

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Unread 02-10-2002, 12:45 PM   #22
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instead of women drinking, i think the bochrim should learn a lesson from them, and limit their drinking to even less then the gezaira...
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Unread 02-10-2002, 04:09 PM   #23
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Whoa- Jude, rega, you can't make a comment like that without any backup.
Where did that originate? (MODERATORS NOTE: It's actually in the Shulchan Aruch!) A Gemara, which already got interpreted by so may different Rabbonim in a million seforim?
Or something concrete, by somebody who lives in our generation?

And if so, that effectively proves what you were trying to bring out in the Women's Role forum.

What, she needs a babysitter, a chaperone?What you said is a great line for a women's lib activist to quote, proving that Torah puts women second place, which we finally established to be FAR from the truth...
While i respect its authenticity, i'd like to find out what it means to us TODAY.
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Unread 02-19-2002, 06:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Col
the reason why girls don't take l'chaim's at farbregens is because it is heipech hatznius and could lead to pritzus (imagine girls walking down the street drunk after a fargrengen -- not exactly what torah advises)
First of all, obviously it would be very inappropriate as well as not tzniyusdik for a girl to walk home drunk after a farby... BUT neither is it tznius for guys to be walking around drunk..
I think whether it is guys or girls, they should be allowed limited lechayim (as much as their own body can handle).

A few years ago, I was asked to walk to a section of Manhattan with some other female friends of mine to help out on simchas torah (w/ the women) at the chabad house. For safety reasons, It was arranged by the shliach that we would walk back behind the bochurim that went on talucha in that area. One of the bochurim was left in the Chabad center because he was so drunk he couldn’t even walk the 2 1/2 hours back to Crown Heights... I think it was a chillul lubavitch.
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Last edited by Chaim; 02-22-2002 at 03:19 AM.
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Unread 02-26-2002, 01:12 PM   #25
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BS"D Of course it was. But Col's point is clear - that for women it would be much worse, because it constitutes a blatant infraction of tsnius (i.e. not attracting attention to oneself, of course), which is far more important for women.

Another point: the female constitution is much more easily inebriated, so it would be hard to set a maximum number of l'chaims...
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