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Unread 01-16-2003, 07:03 PM   #26
icewolf770
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yes that is true... but i was also looking for some concreate answers..... but i like opinions much better... its just that sometimes, the way you present your opinions they feel like you are stating them as facts.....and i apologise if i do the same...
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Unread 01-16-2003, 07:06 PM   #27
Jude
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when you feel strongly about something, and feel you have the evidence to back you up, you consider your view as fact not merely "one opinion," whether rightly or not.

No need to apologize, but you've seen that on this forum, people are asked for sources for what they say.
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Unread 01-17-2003, 11:39 AM   #28
icewolf770
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not a problem... you want sources i have sources...
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Unread 01-17-2003, 02:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
re Twerski - I have read a number of his books and disagree quite strongly with many of his ideas regarding self-esteem, spirituality and Chassidus. And naturally, since he promotes the 12 step approach, with
Jude pardon my being cynical but I believe you can handle it. Rabbi Twersky's credentials are very concrete .A psychiatrist by training (what is it 12 years in college?? something like it)and many years of running a big rehab hospital and actually very respected in the general world, and very important a scion of the greatest Chasidic Masters, that's quite a lot of heavy duty credentials.
When you disagree what credentials do you bring to the table?
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Unread 01-17-2003, 02:43 PM   #30
Jude
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as I suggested earlier, click on Search and look for the references to Twerski for more about this
there are psychiatrists, psychologists, and others of professional standing who vehemently disagree with Twerski's views on self esteem and his approach to addiction. I quoted one above, in this thread. So it's not like his view is the ONLY view.
Where do I come in? I've read a number of Twerski's books and I've read a number of those who present a different viewpoint, and I've decided that the others' perspective makes a whole lot more sense. That's my right, my choice, and my opinion.
Re his views on Chassidus - see his very own epilogue to his book Not Just Chasidic Stories, to read his admission of ignorance of what Chasidus is.
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Unread 01-18-2003, 09:27 PM   #31
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in r' twerski's defense i think that he was being modest when he said that... but as for those other professors, etc... who are they and what are the books that they wrote... or are they just speakers who only forum is the internet????
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Unread 01-18-2003, 10:36 PM   #32
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He certainly must know something about Chassidus, as he was the president of the Lubavitch Shul in Pittsburgh while he lived there (his grandchildren even went to school there). I'm sure Rabbi Posner (the original shliach sent by the FR to Pittsburgh) and others in the community gave him some idea.

Although, I must admit that his opinions are in no way infallible.
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Unread 01-19-2003, 09:45 AM   #33
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I think a good way to put Rabbi Twerski into perspective (this is how I did it) is to look at something he himself wrote: That he took a look at the disrespect for Rabbis, and how little influence they were having (over 40 years ago) on anyone, and decided he could have his father's influence on people by becoming a therapist.

IMHO, he gave up the tremendous depth that comes with being a Rov, especially a Chasidishe Rov (which his family definitely was). Instead he uses psychology, with a little of his background as a Chosid.

The influence he is able to have thereby is immense, and I, and I am sure others, have seen first-hand the impact he has and is able to have world wide. However, the depth of that impact is limited.
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Unread 01-19-2003, 10:08 AM   #34
Jude
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who are the other professionals who disagree with Twerski? Look in your public library or go to Amazon to the enormous self-help section and you'll see books by professionals presenting other perspectives on the self esteem issue as well as recovery. Likewise there are parenting books that buck the current -what I consider- harmful yet popular trends in parenting.

Quote:
He certainly must know something about Chassidus, as he was the president of the Lubavitch Shul in Pittsburgh
very convincing He was president. Hence he must know something.
He probably does know some - thing, but read his epilogue and then read "On the Essence of Chassidus" by the Rebbe ... Night and day doesn't properly express it ...

Quote:
decided he could have his father's influence on people by becoming a therapist.
uh huh. The Rebbe insisted on no college. The Rebbe pleaded for no secular studies. At all. The Rebbe answered someone who was going on shlichus to a foreign country who wanted to study the language, not to waste his time. And Twerski decided he would have a GREATER influence than MERE Rabbis (like lowly Shluchim) by attending college and medical school! That's the conclusion a subjective young man makes when he doesn't consult with the Rosh Bnei Yisrael, that HE knows better what is good for Klal Yisrael.
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Unread 01-19-2003, 11:38 AM   #35
icewolf770
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the only thing that i do know is this...
there is nothing new under the sun, and much study is weariness to the flesh, but in the end all that matters is how you served hashem and did His mitzvos...

and as for your blantent animosity i am curiouse what has occured for you to be sooo emotionally charged with this topic... i hope that you are able to work out what ever it is, you have my prayers....
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Unread 01-19-2003, 11:56 AM   #36
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uh huh. The Rebbe insisted on no college. The Rebbe pleaded for no secular studies. At all. The Rebbe answered someone who was going on shlichus to a foreign country who wanted to study the language, not to waste his time. And Twerski decided he would have a GREATER influence than MERE Rabbis (like lowly Shluchim) by attending college and medical school! That's the conclusion a subjective young man makes when he doesn't consult with the Rosh Bnei Yisrael, that HE knows better what is good for Klal Yisrael.
Um, so Rabbi Twersky invokes your ire because he went to college? What about countless others who went??? and yes the Rebbe did too, I see that icewolf770 has picked up that your animosity towards R'Twersky is not issue based, it's sounds more like 'you have issues'!
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Unread 01-19-2003, 12:21 PM   #37
Jude
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Since I have never met R' Twerski, and have had no connection with him other than having read some of his books, and know no one who sought either his professional or rabbinic counsel, and am not engaged in any occupation that competes with him, all that I've said about his very own statements is as objective as a subjective human being can be.

When somebody puts their books and articles out there for people to read, it means they want to share their ideas and hope to convince you of the legitimacy of their position. How strange it is, that people who express their support for openmindedness, are intolerant when people disagree with either them or others; stranger still, when objective reasons are given for the disagreement. Nobody has posted objective counterclaims to my assertions. Must we think like you or risk being accused of having issues to resolve?
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Unread 01-19-2003, 12:28 PM   #38
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Jude, from the small quote i posted above you do not sound objective at all. You sound furious at the man and from previous discussions i remember that you have a pathalogic hatred of him
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Unread 01-19-2003, 12:46 PM   #39
Jude
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are you claiming to be able to accurately assess my emotional level? What are your credentials, pray tell?

I think it would be productive if not illuminating to review the material in this thread thus far: I first posted in #15, objecting to the term "disease", post 17 explained why based on the literature of professionals, post 19 quoted a psychotherapist, in the next few posts, there was a mature exchange of questions and comments about the subject of the thread. It was first in post 29 pretzel, that you stepped in and asked for my credentials. I did not find the question cynical. It's certainly reasonable to ask someone on what basis they disagree. I had actually answered this question earlier, but no problem, I answered the question again.
The problem arises when people don't like the answers. The mature response is to say - apparently there is disagreement among the professionals, and whichever side one favors, there are professionals to back them up. The immature response is - your highlighting Twerski's flaws based on his own statements irks me, and therefore I'll accuse you of being subjective, emotional, and in need of therapy to resolve issues. And I'll go the next step (very popular in Recovery programs): If you don't see it, then you're in DENIAL!

Can we stick to the topic at hand or do you have an obsessive-compulsive need to pursue the personal dimension further?
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Unread 01-19-2003, 04:42 PM   #40
icewolf770
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actually my mind is curiouse as to where the personal dimension leads us...

but on another level i think that we do become attached to the outlooks that we are proponents of... as for my proof, i would be more than happy to put together a disortation explaining my views and perceptions based upon facts and people who are well known in the field of therapy... but one thing that i am curiouse about is why you have chosen the view point that you did... yes there are many opposing view points on the recovery process etc.. but the 12 step program and everything that it does is the longest running working program... why someone would be so opposed to it makes me wounder about that person and where they developed thier objections.....
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Unread 01-19-2003, 06:18 PM   #41
Jude
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it's not at all mysterious or earthshattering, and though the development of my personal views is not the topic of this thread, nor (I imagine) is it of general interest, I'll satisfy your curiosity to say that I take an academic interest in these and related subjects, and after reading numerous books I've drawn my own conclusions.

Although addictions per se are not my focus, the impact the Recovery Movement has had on society in general is of great interest to me, i.e. how it has shaped our thinking in general, and has molded our parenting/educational philosophy.
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Unread 01-20-2003, 02:08 AM   #42
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I don't see how your posts explain the little quote i took from one of your posts in post #36. You 'tore' into him for no apparent reason. You call that issue based??
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Unread 01-20-2003, 10:18 AM   #43
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it was solely in response to post #33, not something I would have brought up on my own
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Unread 01-20-2003, 04:07 PM   #44
icewolf770
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so essentially what is confusing to me is that if i (chas v'shalom) have cancer and i go to a doctor and that doctor says well... i've never practiced medecine but i have read extensively on your cancer and i think that i know how to treat you, i should go with that person?
the same thing applies here, r'twerski has practiced in the field for numerouse years as have many others that i have worked with (no, i didn't get the chance to work with r'twerski, i would have loved to though)... those other authors who you, jude, have quoted have not worked in the field, they are scientist and reaserchers, (if i am reading them correctly, depending on if you have given me the correct sources) its the same as me going to that doctor in the begining instead of me finding someone who has hands on experience... now, i understand your view point but you have not given me a convincing argument why we shouldn't make such resources available in our community...
thank you
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Unread 01-20-2003, 04:16 PM   #45
Jude
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I have no idea why you assumed it's a competition between someone "in the field" versus a "scientist or researcher." I said nothing of the kind. I was referring to professionals "in the field."
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Unread 01-20-2003, 10:28 PM   #46
icewolf770
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so who are they?
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Unread 01-21-2003, 10:58 AM   #47
Jude
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I don't think it's advisable to publicly post names of secular psychologists etc.
so there are 2 choices: 1) you can pm me 2) you can do some research in the libarary, bookstore, or Internet (Amazon)
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Unread 01-21-2003, 11:27 AM   #48
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It's interesting that you would 'go' with 'secular' professionals, who may very well be preaching unaccaptable 'hashkafa', and turn your 'heavy guns' against a chosheveh rov who 'happens' to also be one of the top in his field even amongst the secular. Hmmm, go figure
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Unread 01-21-2003, 11:37 AM   #49
Jude
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and where do you think he was educated and got his degrees? solely in yeshiva? he was exposed to the same secular, anti-Torah education as the completely secular professionals
to reiterate, my view is based on the material these professionals have put forth for the layman to read, not on their ancestry or personal history
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Unread 01-21-2003, 12:20 PM   #50
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Jude, yes, but there is a wee difference.....
Irrespective if your regular Joe (the one without 'loaded' parents, or the 'other' who cannot 'stomach' being the beneficiary of 'Uncle Sams' housing, food, medical insurance benevolence, which comes at the price of 'gneiva')should attend college, many respected Rabbonim and g-d fearing laymen have (including the Rebbe, similar to the injunction that the Sages of the Sanhedrin should be versed in The seventy languages of the nations). These people have managed to discard the chaff and take only the good. Rabbi Twersky has withstood this severe test with flying honours not even changing one iota of his distinct chasidic dress, beard and sidelocks. He is no youngster anymore, and now thank g-d we can make use of his secular studies and long years of 'hands on' experience in the mental health field including being director of one of the most famous mental health facilities in the United States. Only a person of this backround can understand the special issues ultra orthodox jews have to deal with, it is not surprising that he is a perrenial bestseller at Artscroll which will not publish any books unless the have been 100% sanctioned by leading Rabbonim.
I think I have made my case clear, I will follow an ehlicheh yid who has proven credentials. who is also a great writer and a first class 'Mentsch'
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