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Unread 08-02-2009, 12:46 PM   #1
mosheh5769
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An ex-Chossid since 3T

Today I met a friend whom I hadn't hear about for years. Before GT he was a very commited Chossid, a good friend of my father. But after GT , he not only abandoned Chassidus but also the practice of Judaism. I spent two hours talking with him and I managed to make him think a little (with more or less succes). But how to explain him that GT should not affect a what a Chossid think and what happened should make us grow up and especially strenghten our commitment to the Rebbe Nosi Doreinu? Is there any one else among you who has experienced this situation? Do you know of other former Hossid who "left the house" following the events of GT? What did you told them?
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Unread 08-02-2009, 05:38 PM   #2
chossidnistar
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Unfortunately, nobody is free from, cv, "leaving the house"
I saw some ppl [..] who switched to Breslov after 3 of Tamuz and many others leaving Yddishkait
But is hard to say that was b/c 3 of Tamuz, but for sure , that had some impact in their foolish decission
what to say? I discovered a secret, that worked in 3 cases:Get their wives to go to the Mikveh
If they are singles, just start from 0, put tefillin,etc

Last edited by Yitzy; 08-02-2009 at 08:16 PM.
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Unread 08-02-2009, 08:41 PM   #3
Majorthinker
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CN- First of all, I have a feeling that "starting from zero" is not the completely correct approach. The guy knows everything, he's just been disillusioned. Just give him support, talk to him, find out why he went off, etc.
And why does their wives going to mikva turn them around? (You know, they both have to be in agreement for that one...seems tougher, not easier.)
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Unread 08-02-2009, 09:40 PM   #4
chossidnistar
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CN- First of all, I have a feeling that "starting from zero" is not the completely correct approach. The guy knows everything, he's just been disillusioned. Just give him support, talk to him, find out why he went off, etc..)
I think that it is better just like this, and also to call for RH,IK
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And why does their wives going to mikva turn them around? (You know, they both have to be in agreement for that one...seems tougher, not easier.)
I really do not know why this can turn them around, I just know about 3 cases.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 12:11 AM   #5
emes m'eretz
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In my humble opinion:

I think that often people who leave have their own psychological issues etc.

There's no question that 3 Tamuz was a big shock, especially for those who were absolutely sure that it wouldn't happen. The subsequent splitting of Lubavitch was further trauma, and many if not all people needed to adjust themselves (their thinking and emotions) to the new reality.

But for people who were already very shaky (deep inside), 3 Tamuz may have been the last straw.

These days Lubavitch seems to be stronger than ever, and many of the rifts seem to have been healed, at least to the extent where people can live together in mutual respect.

Perhaps some of the above can be (diplomatically and with sensitivity) pointed out to your friend. And, as others write, the main thing is to continue to show understanding, respect, and warmth. Ahavas Yisroel.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 02:33 AM   #6
shlucha14
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My uncle was a bohur in 5754, one of those who was always one of the Chassidim in the hospital, he was a star bochur - went on shlichus overseas in '89, etc, etc. After Gimmul Tammuz he took off his yarmulke and that was it.

What <i>can</i> we tell them? For everyone it's their own personal thing, you can't make someone feel as you do, all you can do is tell them things as they stand.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 04:06 AM   #7
mosheh5769
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
If they are singles, just start from 0, put tefillin,etc
It's a wast of time to start from o because everytime you would try to make a point he'd answer something like "I know all this stuff, I have studied 5 yrs in a Yeshivah, etc."

It works only for certain people but not all.

This is not Torah classes they need, but a shock, maybe a psychologic shock. You must say good words (words that are going to sting where necessary) at the right time and this is the most difficult.

And for his wife going to the Mikvah I don't see how it may be effective.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 04:22 AM   #8
mosheh5769
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Originally Posted by emes m'eretz View Post
In my humble opinion:

I think that often people who leave have their own psychological issues etc.

There's no question that 3 Tamuz was a big shock, especially for those who were absolutely sure that it wouldn't happen. The subsequent splitting of Lubavitch was further trauma, and many if not all people needed to adjust themselves (their thinking and emotions) to the new reality.

But for people who were already very shaky (deep inside), 3 Tamuz may have been the last straw.

These days Lubavitch seems to be stronger than ever, and many of the rifts seem to have been healed, at least to the extent where people can live together in mutual respect.

Perhaps some of the above can be (diplomatically and with sensitivity) pointed out to your friend. And, as others write, the main thing is to continue to show understanding, respect, and warmth. Ahavas Yisroel.
100% in agreement with you. I had also that thinking but I didn't know how to express it in his presence.

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These days Lubavitch seems to be stronger than ever, and many of the rifts seem to have been healed, at least to the extent where people can live together in mutual respect.
Even Rav Shmuel Butman has his weekly (very interesting and inspiring) show on a famous non-Meshichist website. In France, Meshichisten and Lo-Meshichisten organize (together) community events and some exchange students in Yeshivos, thanks to Rav Levy Kahan who managed to bring closer both camps. He is, at present, the top Lubavitcher Rabbi in Chabad community of Paris.

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And, as others write, the main thing is to continue to show understanding, respect, and warmth. Ahavas Yisroel.
100% right. Atzlachah without Ahavas Yisroel is impossible. He has my number and I told him he could call me at any time. He was pleased and surprised by the warmth I express toward him.

I think he feels a little guilty but has the impression of having gone so far that he can no longer return home. It's an impression I may be wrong but I think he felt something in this tune.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 06:00 AM   #9
emes m'eretz
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You must say good words (words that are going to sting where necessary) at the right time and this is the most difficult.
Maybe something like in a story that seems vaguely familiar to me, where a Rebbe says to a young man: But young man, what if there is an Eibeshter?
Or perhaps, "But my dear friend, what if the Rebbe is right?"
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Unread 08-03-2009, 08:22 AM   #10
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I think he feels a little guilty but has the impression of having gone so far that he can no longer return home. It's an impression I may be wrong but I think he felt something in this tune.
Is that because a) he feels his teshuva won't be accepted or b) he feels that it is too difficult for him to change now.

If it's the first reason, then you can reinforce what he already knows, that it's never too late, and Hashem always accepts us, and really we are all constantly doing teshuva.

If it's the second reason, then you can reinforce that "ein dovor oimeid bifnei horotzoin," (nothing can block one's will), and when we want to do something Hashem helps us. And you can suggest what chossidnistar wrote in post #2, that he [shouldn't try to do everything at once but rather] he should start at 0 and do one thing at a time, slowly.

Besurois toivois.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 10:35 AM   #11
chossidnistar
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
It's a wast of time to start from o because everytime you would try to make a point he'd answer something like "I know all this stuff, I have studied 5 yrs in a Yeshivah, etc."

It works only for certain people but not all.

This is not Torah classes they need, but a shock, maybe a psychologic shock. You must say good words (words that are going to sting where necessary) at the right time and this is the most difficult.


And for his wife going to the Mikvah I don't see how it may be effective.
BY "starting from 0" : I do not mean "to teach them from 0" I mean that it is not worth to talk about this, just if you see him and you are with your teffillin, just suggest to him to put them, or call them for RH,YK, that are very special days for a "new start"

and "the wife going to the mikvah". i also do not see how it may be effective. I just now about 3 cases
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Unread 08-04-2009, 09:20 AM   #12
mosheh5769
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Originally Posted by emes m'eretz View Post
Is that because a) he feels his teshuva won't be accepted or b) he feels that it is too difficult for him to change now.

If it's the first reason, then you can reinforce what he already knows, that it's never too late, and Hashem always accepts us, and really we are all constantly doing teshuva.

If it's the second reason, then you can reinforce that "ein dovor oimeid bifnei horotzoin," (nothing can block one's will), and when we want to do something Hashem helps us. And you can suggest what chossidnistar wrote in post #2, that he [shouldn't try to do everything at once but rather] he should start at 0 and do one thing at a time, slowly.

Besurois toivois.
Omein. Todah for such and I am confident and almost certain to have Besurois Toivois about him.
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Unread 08-04-2009, 09:22 AM   #13
mosheh5769
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
BY "starting from 0" : I do not mean "to teach them from 0" I mean that it is not worth to talk about this, just if you see him and you are with your teffillin, just suggest to him to put them, or call them for RH,YK, that are very special days for a "new start"
I didn't understand things this way. Thank you for the clarification and I think that's a good idea, it may be helpful.

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and "the wife going to the mikvah". i also do not see how it may be effective. I just now about 3 cases
Where did you hear such cases?
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:57 AM   #14
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.



Where did you hear such cases?
from one very reliable Mikvah attendant volunteer
it looks that in these 3 cases, the Mikvah was their only connection with Iddishkait
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Unread 08-09-2009, 11:06 AM   #15
mosheh5769
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from one very reliable Mikvah attendant volunteer
it looks that in these 3 cases, the Mikvah was their only connection with Iddishkait
Thanks
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