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Unread 05-02-2009, 08:35 PM   #51
existwhere?
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Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Boruch Sheeomar and Yishtabach without Ashrei at least???
Assuming you are a female - the list is still wrong.
Of course! I just forgot to write it.
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Perhaps in some sense. But I doubt very much that the Rashab was advocating people pay less attention to the page to stay out of trouble. I read the Rashab as cautioning against those who want to reach the level Remez, Drush and Sod in their treatment of the text. But "perush hamilos" in my mind, means pshat in the milos.

Also, and this was dropped from the conversation above, but I also mentioned the idea of stopping to think about specific personal cases where one needs a certain brochoh. Asking for a refuah, for help doing teshuvah, or for wisdom in the appropriate places.
It's a good idea.
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Why should I pretend? Assuming the Rav who told her that is qualified (not a given, as often "My Rav" means like "My mashpia"...), she could go back and ask again. I am assuming she got it wrong, not the Rov.
I wrote it wrong, not my Rav (a Rav in the yeshiva world is nothing like a mashpia, btw. My Rebbetzin would be more like that.)
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Okay, let me distill this down to one question. In your reading of the Rashab, is it appropriate for a person who has done no specific learning that day to prepare for this passage, to read the words "Atah Gibor L'Olam Hashem M'chayeh Meisim B'Rachamim Rabim" and reflect for a minute or so on (1) How powerful G-d is; (2) How Hashem has the ability to resurect the dead; and (3) How merciful Hashem is in doing so? By reflect I mean simply wonder at these ideas the way one might wonder at a beautiful sunset or a clever turn of phrase.

I think yes, all the person is doing is stopping to let perush hamilos sink in.

I believe the trouble starts when the person starts answering (1) Why Gibor rather than Godol; (2) What's the gematria of Mechayeh Meisim; (3) If Rachimim Rabim is like Ahavah Rabah.
Right. That's my issue.When I'm not daydreaming.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 09:35 PM   #52
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According to the AR, women do not have to say Boruch Sheomar, Yishtabach, or anything in between. They do however, have to say the brocho after KS (though interestingly enough, KS itself is optional , though recommended).
[Of course, if they have the time, they should do everything. But it is not obligated].
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Unread 05-02-2009, 10:07 PM   #53
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how does one, with so short amount of time for hachano letfilah and tefilah, manage all the parts outlined in kuntres hatfilah?
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Unread 05-02-2009, 11:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Okay, let me distill this down to one question. In your reading of the Rashab, is it appropriate for a person who has done no specific learning that day to prepare for this passage, to read the words "Atah Gibor L'Olam Hashem M'chayeh Meisim B'Rachamim Rabim" and reflect for a minute or so on (1) How powerful G-d is; (2) How Hashem has the ability to resurect the dead; and (3) How merciful Hashem is in doing so? By reflect I mean simply wonder at these ideas the way one might wonder at a beautiful sunset or a clever turn of phrase.
If he doesn't start thinking about details, I don't see the problem.

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how does one, with so short amount of time for hachano letfilah and tefilah, manage all the parts outlined in kuntres hatfilah?
Outlined where in that Kuntres? As mentioned before in this thread, that Kuntres contains a program for businessmen with little time here.
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Unread 05-03-2009, 05:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by existwhere? View Post
Of course! I just forgot to write it.
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

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I wrote it wrong, not my Rav (a Rav in the yeshiva world is nothing like a mashpia, btw. My Rebbetzin would be more like that.


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Right. That's my issue.When I'm not daydreaming.
Sometimes, pointing to the word helps with daydreaming.

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Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
According to the AR, women do not have to say Boruch Sheomar, Yishtabach, or anything in between. They do however, have to say the brocho after KS (though interestingly enough, KS itself is optional , though recommended).
[Of course, if they have the time, they should do everything. But it is not obligated].
That brocho is considered to be part of the transition between k"s and s"e, no? I guess I learned the halachot for the men, never really thinking the womens' version relevant.

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how does one, with so short amount of time for hachano letfilah and tefilah, manage all the parts outlined in kuntres hatfilah?
"Parts" as in what?

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If he doesn't start thinking about details, I don't see the problem.
Agreed.
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Unread 05-03-2009, 08:06 AM   #56
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That brocho is considered to be part of the transition between k"s and s"e, no? I guess I learned the halachot for the men, never really thinking the womens' version relevant.
No, the reason is because it is a brocho on remembering yetzias mitzrayim, in which women are obligated.
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Unread 05-03-2009, 12:33 PM   #57
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That I know; I was asking something slightly different. Thanks, though.
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Unread 05-04-2009, 09:21 PM   #58
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"Parts" as in what?


like learn chassidus before starting to daven, remove all other thoughts from your head- takes a while!, saying all the words and thinking about all the inner meanings and peirush hamilos. all those steps take a long time, what about those that dont have so much time to daven?
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Unread 05-05-2009, 01:28 AM   #59
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Get up earlier? Say tikkun chatzot?
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Unread 05-05-2009, 09:20 AM   #60
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Try your best with the time that you have; that's all that Hashem asks of us. Also, if you can't learn Chassidus in the morning before davvenen, learn the night before.
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Unread 05-05-2009, 09:36 AM   #61
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Try your best with the time that you have; that's all that Hashem asks of us. Also, if you can't learn Chassidus in the morning before davvenen, learn the night before.
I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly.

The question that we've been discussing is what to do if one has an extra 5 minutes in the morning. Obviously, learning for 5 minutes is one option; another might be to stretch out one section or another in davening. The latter becomes more preferable if its only 1-2 minutes; the former is usually preferable if its more like 15.

And learning the night before (or learning something on Shabbos to think about during the week) is a very good suggestion.
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Unread 05-05-2009, 09:43 AM   #62
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Ah, we agree on something. Finally!
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Unread 05-05-2009, 09:44 AM   #63
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Try your best with the time that you have; that's all that Hashem asks of us. Also, if you can't learn Chassidus in the morning before davvenen, learn the night before.
I'm not against learning the night before, but where do you find that it replaces the morning one?

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I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly.

The question that we've been discussing is what to do if one has an extra 5 minutes in the morning. Obviously, learning for 5 minutes is one option; another might be to stretch out one section or another in davening. The latter becomes more preferable if its only 1-2 minutes; the former is usually preferable if its more like 15.

And learning the night before (or learning something on Shabbos to think about during the week) is a very good suggestion.
What to do if you have an extra five minutes? Er....make an asher yatzar? And if you have another five, then start davening and go slower.

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Ah, we agree on something. Finally!
Shehecheyanu v'kiyamanu v'higiyanu lizman hazeh. NL and MTC finally agree! [insert balloons]
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Unread 05-05-2009, 09:51 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
The question that we've been discussing is what to do if one has an extra 5 minutes in the morning. Obviously, learning for 5 minutes is one option; another might be to stretch out one section or another in davening. The latter becomes more preferable if its only 1-2 minutes; the former is usually preferable if its more like 15.
I have not been following the nuances of this thread, nonetheless, I will weigh in on this one:
I would say it depends when that extra 5/15 minutes is. If it means that one can come to shul earlier, then I can perhaps see the logic in learning 15 minutes (or even 5) before davvening.
If it means he can stay 15 minutes after the minyan, I would say start with the minyan and davven longer (or learn after davvening), rather that learning by the minyan and starting later, since at least this way one has some semblance of תפילה בציבור.
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Unread 05-05-2009, 11:40 AM   #65
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If it means he can stay 15 minutes after the minyan, I would say start with the minyan and davven longer (or learn after davvening), rather that learning by the minyan and starting later, since at least this way one has some semblance of תפילה בציבור.
I'm only disagreeing to the extent that we're talking about using the extra 5/15 minutes to improve kavanah. If you learn after davening, the ship has sailed. Now saying a few extra tehillim after davening, or perhaps learning and meditating on what one learned for a minute or two is perhaps more inline with the goals.

Sometimes I set aside an hour on Shabbos morning and it doesn't help my davening at all - I'm so busy focussing on the learning piece (maybe spending 45 minutes on a gemarrah footnote in the maamir), that the davening isn't really helped in the process. Sometimes it can even be the opposite since I get distracted.

Nu, if Noahides and I can agree why isn't Moshiach here?
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Unread 05-05-2009, 01:50 PM   #66
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I'm only disagreeing to the extent that we're talking about using the extra 5/15 minutes to improve kavanah. If you learn after davening, the ship has sailed. Now saying a few extra tehillim after davening, or perhaps learning and meditating on what one learned for a minute or two is perhaps more inline with the goals.

Sometimes I set aside an hour on Shabbos morning and it doesn't help my davening at all - I'm so busy focussing on the learning piece (maybe spending 45 minutes on a gemarrah footnote in the maamir), that the davening isn't really helped in the process. Sometimes it can even be the opposite since I get distracted.

Nu, if Noahides and I can agree why isn't Moshiach here?
Agreed.
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Unread 05-07-2009, 01:32 PM   #67
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personaly i usualy just reflect on how the pirush hamilos interact with my life. . . vis a vis learning, teshuva, and everything else.

when i actualy do this, it rarely fails to elicit tears. (and of course on the lives of those i love.)

although its annoying, and when i daven with a minyan self punishing, because i almost always end up finishing by the time the Sh"tz is davening barech alainu or later. . .

which is annoying.

then on, after discovering how much the tur goes into this kind of stuff i've been meaning to study the turs comments on this. . .

(i remember reading the tur about the laws of tefila for rosh hashana a number of years ago and being extremely surprised with how much material there was beyond what is in the alter rebbe's shulchan aruch. its really an understudied work i think.)
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Unread 05-07-2009, 02:19 PM   #68
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and noah, btw, i would suggest that MTC is right, because there is a world of difference between, lets say, thinking about in hashiveinu, regarding turning away from various not so good acts that you have done, and davkah contemplating the inyan of gevura vis a vis hashiva or v'lmalishim. . .

One might think that this is the inyan delt with in this bracha but it is not necesserily true.

And then vis a vis the avot bracha, it is true that this bracha is related to chessed, and the next to gevura, but one could easily er in the application of this thought, while contemplating the relationship of avraham yitzchak and yaakov, and how hashem protected and guided them in their wanderings is just about fool proof. (especialy as there are rishonim on all sides of most topics concerning this.) not to mention the inyanim are much better known.

likewise as contemplating the sod aspects of these various brachot might lead you to contemplate the wrong shamot, nedukot, etc, which as mentioned elswhere is like destoying entire worlds.

So i would tend to suggest that MTC is right.

(T613, your comments would be greatly appriciated here.)(thinking of you, do you know which particular siman(im) in the tur discuss the kavanot and the allusions in the text?)
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Unread 05-07-2009, 06:31 PM   #69
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For the amidah of Shachris, starting at Siman 112.
In general the Tur has lots of peirush hatfila, with different remozim etc. Each in its own place - tefilla shel chol, Shabbas, Yomim Noroim etc.
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Unread 05-07-2009, 06:40 PM   #70
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I'm not against learning the night before, but where do you find that it replaces the morning one?
Just based on the general idea that the day follows the night, and the beginning of the day is by mayriv or by kerias shema she'al hamita.

ktonton, I'm really confused. What exactly is MTC right about, and why?
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Unread 05-07-2009, 08:10 PM   #71
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I believe, Ktonton was supporting my assertion that a degree of contemplation on basic perush hamilos is not the "meditation" (hisbonenus) that the Rashab warned against. His basis, I gather, is the Tur's listing of various kavanos in his shulchan aruch.
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Unread 05-10-2009, 12:57 PM   #72
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Thanks, MTC.
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Unread 05-17-2009, 02:16 PM   #73
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Here is a great article about that. Dos is Emes!!!
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-Hypocrite.htm
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Unread 06-10-2009, 09:49 PM   #74
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For the amidah of Shachris, starting at Siman 112.
In general the Tur has lots of peirush hatfila, with different remozim etc. Each in its own place - tefilla shel chol, Shabbas, Yomim Noroim etc.
excellent. thank you.

i will have to learn that, it will probably help improve my davening further.

i first noticed it when learning siman 582 in the tur, only to discover, much to my delight, a great deal of additional material beyond what the shulchan aruch and its successors cover.

But then i am of the impressiojn that the tur was intended to be, in many ways is, much more comprehensive in its coverage than the shulchan aruch. The shulchan aruch covers laws, but the tur regularly brings down midrashim, aggadot, etc. this explains the numerous simanim in the shulchan aruch which have almost nothing and seem quite superfluous but which are quite rich with material in the tur. (and indeed why some of the simanim even exist at all.)
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