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Unread 05-25-2005, 11:08 PM   #251
betterhalf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
mcp - we already had this identical discussion. For all those interested, look in the threads I linked to before.
betterhalf - as already mentioned in other threads, there are ways to get an education that will help you get a job - well paying ones (eventually) - without enrolling in university with all that entails, if one is willing to work at it. We see this all the time all around us.
I'm glad you see it all the time, I don't. Please post a link if you can to these other threads. Let's say we go all the way with what Torah and the Rebbe want. Wives be professional homemakers who make a bit on the side with homemade items a la the words of Eishes Chayil, and the husband fulfills the marriage contract by supporting his family of say about 8 kids (at least if you give the wife about 20 fertile years). I honestly don't see how most (not the exceptions) men can find a way to even pay the $96,000 per year in schooling costs they will need without going outside the Torah community for training. Even with massive scholarships, add rent and food and clothes. Can the average man, let's even say he has learned to speak and spell English, earn $80,000 or so without a college degree? Or without becoming exceedingly dishonest? I don't think so. But I await your solution in those threads you will post.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 11:40 PM   #252
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While I agree with Torah613 that unmarried people should not go to college, I also await the eitza of how to earn $80,000 ++ in the outside world without college, a business or rich parents. In fact, when you do come up with the idea, you could write a book about it, then you too will make lots of money.
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Unread 05-26-2005, 07:55 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Poilisher
I also await the eitza of how to earn $80,000 ++ in the outside world without college, a business or rich parents.
Who said without a business? Maybe without working also? Who said anything about 80,000++?
Whatever.
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Unread 05-26-2005, 03:57 PM   #254
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my principal said that wtvr $$ your supposed to get Hashem will give you either way. And usually when you earn s/th that isnt really meant to be yours you end up having to use it for s/th.
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Unread 05-26-2005, 05:01 PM   #255
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I refer you to http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1858 which has, among other good stuff, a list (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...7&postcount=48) of well paying jobs that do not require a college education, one in fact which DOES pay over $80,000 a year.

I would note, though, that with a large family, more benefits may serve you better than more salary.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 01:44 AM   #256
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Deepthinkers- That is partially true. You have to make a kli. For example: if someone is throwing gold coins off of a roof, if you open your hands, you can catch maybe 10 coins. If you have a sack, you can catch hundreds of coins. If you don't show up, you get nothing. But, you can have the biggest sack in the world, and if there's nobody throwing coins, you'll do just as well as the guy who stayed at home. You can only get money if the Eibishter wants you to make money... but if the Eibishter wants you to have money, and you want to sit in your easychair... then you probably wont make any money, regardless of the brochos.

That having been said... why is everyone so intent on $80,000? There are plenty of people who don't make $80,000 who do just fine... with many children, noch. The Rebbe said that Chassidim shouldn't go to College in general. Who are we to argue? If you want to say that the Rebbe's advice will preclude you from making $80,000, then I'll tell you maybe the Rebbe doesn't want you to make $80,000.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 06:27 AM   #257
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hello, thank you to everyone for all your answers, i have to take time to read all of them, i still will have to go there because for me ,if i dont go ,its as if i let my Yetser Hara decide what to do with me cause, Mitsidy (from my point of view), i dont want to go to the University, but because my father is giving me the strenghts by tellling me that i could do it, that i have the ability , i wanna do it, the only prob' for me is that its so hqard to get registered, to gather all the papers and staff and to take the time to do it really, so its like a goal for me.
second of all, im the type of doing shlichus every where i go, every where i am, i think its one more opportunity for me to bring someone either closer to judaism, either teach the 7laws(what i will also be doin in my university), i was raised like that and i love to do mivtsoim!!
what do you think?? Is my yetser hara gonna find new items to disturb me even if im so strong in my judaism and im still doing my chitas everyday, dressing tzniusdik...??
help me
thanks
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Unread 05-27-2005, 08:58 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by segulah358
hello, thank you to everyone for all your answers, i have to take time to read all of them, i still will have to go there because for me ,if i dont go ,its as if i let my Yetser Hara decide what to do with me cause,
Forgive me, I don't understand this at all: If you don't go it's because of your yetzer horo?!
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Unread 05-27-2005, 12:48 PM   #259
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There are plenty of people who don't make $80,000 who do just fine... with many children, noch.
Let's hear from them, please. I invite all of you, people who have 5 or more children, whose wives stay home at least part time, who have a parnassah that is enough to put food on the table, pay tuition and save for a rainy day, I invite all of you to share how you did it without going to college. Even if you don't make 80K, please share with us what sort of job you have that is able to pay your bills. Please do not respond if you are paid under the table or get tuition scholarships. Please do not respond if you know of someone who knows of someone who knows of someone who has a good job.

The lists of jobs that supposedly pay good money without going to university are not very practical unless people are actually able to get those jobs. I want to hear from real people who are able to support their families without an advanced degree. If you have a business, tell us where you got the loans from or how you convinced the bank to give you credit without a degree.

Quote:
there are ways to get an education that will help you get a job - well paying ones (eventually) - without enrolling in university with all that entails, if one is willing to work at it. We see this all the time all around us.
Does this mean that all those people who do not have money to pay rent and put food on the table are just lazy or clueless ? Or is it possible that the chance of finding a family -supporting job is much higher with an advanced than without one ?

Last edited by mcp; 05-27-2005 at 01:02 PM.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 01:00 PM   #260
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I just looked more in depth at that thread about jobs that can support people and here's what I have to say.

1. most of the posts are from people who "have heard" that this is a good job, not from people actually in the field.
2. Most government positions listed such as toll booth worker and postal employee do not provide a sufficient salary, but most importantly, they are very few in number. It is not easy to get a job as a postal worker or a toll booth collector, you virtually have to know someone who works there to get you in, from what I have heard.

3. Many jobs require having your own business or selling things to others- good for you if you like telemarketing or fundraising or selling stuff, but many many people do not have that skill. Owning you own business, like I said before, requires that you go to a bank to get a loan and I don't know of any bank officer who would approve of a loan to someone who has no college degree (and a yeshiva high school degree where english was an optional subject).

4. This list of people who make a lot of money :
Profession - Median Annual Earnings

Quote:
Air Traffic Controller - $87,930
Nuclear Power Reactor Operator - $60,180
Dental Hygienist* - $54,700
Elevator Installer/Repairer - $51,630
Real Estate Broker - $51,380
Commercial Pilot (non-airline) - $47,410
Electrical Power Line Installer/Repairer - $47,210
Locomotive Engineer - $46,540
Telecom Equipment Installer/Repairer* - $46,390
Funeral Director* - $42,010
Aircraft Mechanic* - $41,990
Brick Mason - $41,590
Police Officer - $40,970
Electrician - $40,770
Flight Attendant* - $40,600
Court Reporter* - $40,410
Real Estate Appraiser* - $38,950
...is ridiculous if you actually think that you can get these jobs without a college degree. Do you think that you can be an air traffic controller or a pilot without an advanced degree at a college-type school ? Do you think you will get to be a policeman without going through the police academy, which is the same as a college ? Do you think you will be hired as a real estate appraiser without a college degree ? Look in the New York times- each and every job listed, even the menial positions that pay nothing, all say " college degree preferred".
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Unread 05-27-2005, 01:26 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by segulah358
hello, thank you to everyone for all your answers, i have to take time to read all of them, i still will have to go there because for me ,if i dont go ,its as if i let my Yetser Hara decide what to do with me cause, Mitsidy (from my point of view), i dont want to go to the University, but because my father is giving me the strenghts by tellling me that i could do it, that i have the ability , i wanna do it, the only prob' for me is that its so hqard to get registered, to gather all the papers and staff and to take the time to do it really, so its like a goal for me.
second of all, im the type of doing shlichus every where i go, every where i am, i think its one more opportunity for me to bring someone either closer to judaism, either teach the 7laws(what i will also be doin in my university), i was raised like that and i love to do mivtsoim!!
what do you think?? Is my yetser hara gonna find new items to disturb me even if im so strong in my judaism and im still doing my chitas everyday, dressing tzniusdik...??
help me
thanks
b'h

Your Dad knows you best, so i would advocate listening to him. It may be a good idea to get reactions from other close family membs/friends who know you better than posters on this board. Don't be discouraged....

make sure you have a solid Mashpea who you feel comfortable talking with about issues you might encounter. Issues such as challenging questions mitzad yourself and mitsad other students, how to avoid unwarranted advances by male students, etc etc.....

I'm sure you will help in farshpreiten yidishkit, by promoting Jewish diversity, in college, where Torah's teachings are the most misunderstood.

you sound intelligent, im sure youll do just fine.

Good luck with everything
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Unread 05-27-2005, 01:43 PM   #262
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Mitzad the Rebbe opinion regarding college, btw, is there a distinction b/w undergraduate and graduate, law school, med school etc ?

There seems to be a very pronounced differences in that the environment is more studies oreinted, the classes are limited to specific discplines that usually dont conflict with Judiasm. Its helathier overall.............

That being the case, many Yeshivas (morristown for one) offer BAs that will be accepted by Law Schools. I know several people who went from attaining their BA from Yeshiva, to going straight into Law School.

Would going that route be a better idea!?!
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Unread 05-27-2005, 01:48 PM   #263
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MCP, you miss the point entirely. The people who make less than $80,000 may not respond because they might be at work. But you don't have to ask them. All you have to do is look at US census data, or take a drive into Boro Park, Crown Heights, Lakewood, Williamsburg, Monroe, Monsey, etc. to see people who are living just fine on less than $80,000.

Do you think Rashei Yeshiva make that much? I know a Rosh Yeshiva who has children learning in yeshivos and seminaries all accross the world (including Israel, S. America, etc.). His wife works part time in Chinuch. He's very happy. His wife is very happy. His kids are very happy, and very healthy (spiritually and otherwise... much more so than many kids I know whose parents are wealthier).

Here's the down-side: He doesn't live in a huge house. His car was built in the mid-90s. Wow... I'd hate to have that life... driving around a mid-size sedan from the mid-90s... it just cramps my style.

I doubt he makes over $40,000. I also know for a fact that he doesn't get very many benefits, so most of his paycheck probably pays auto-insurance, health-insurance, etc., and I imagine he puts what little he can away. And he's very happy!

Chassidim aren't intended to live extravagant lives. If one does, because of some pre-existing situation, etc., then all power to him. But Chassidisher Kinder weren't meant to go to college. College is more than just a makom pritzus: it teaches bad values exemplified by your condescending request to hear from stasfied members of the lower-middle class.

Happiness isn't a BMW or a nice retirement-account. Happiness is Chassidisher children, and an active healthy involvement with Torah learning. Both of those are free. Paying bills is expensive, but somehow people manage without being CEOs.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 02:07 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
MCP, you miss the point entirely. The people who make less than $80,000 may not respond because they might be at work. But you don't have to ask them. All you have to do is look at US census data, or take a drive into Boro Park, Crown Heights, Lakewood, Williamsburg, Monroe, Monsey, etc. to see people who are living just fine on less than $80,000.

Do you think Rashei Yeshiva make that much? I know a Rosh Yeshiva who has children learning in yeshivos and seminaries all accross the world (including Israel, S. America, etc.). His wife works part time in Chinuch. He's very happy. His wife is very happy. His kids are very happy, and very healthy (spiritually and otherwise... much more so than many kids I know whose parents are wealthier).

Here's the down-side: He doesn't live in a huge house. His car was built in the mid-90s. Wow... I'd hate to have that life... driving around a mid-size sedan from the mid-90s... it just cramps my style.

I doubt he makes over $40,000. I also know for a fact that he doesn't get very many benefits, so most of his paycheck probably pays auto-insurance, health-insurance, etc., and I imagine he puts what little he can away. And he's very happy!

Chassidim aren't intended to live extravagant lives. If one does, because of some pre-existing situation, etc., then all power to him. But Chassidisher Kinder weren't meant to go to college. College is more than just a makom pritzus: it teaches bad values exemplified by your condescending request to hear from stasfied members of the lower-middle class.

Happiness isn't a BMW or a nice retirement-account. Happiness is Chassidisher children, and an active healthy involvement with Torah learning. Both of those are free. Paying bills is expensive, but somehow people manage without being CEOs.
1. Amen, I second that. You must realise, however, that making money can benfit others not just yourself. Don't assume everyone with money is selfish. I know plenty of people who make 100k+ salaries who dont live extravegently but use lots of their money to help others.

2. Moreover, living an ascetic lifestyle, is hepich Judaism value of using the material world for g-dly purpose

3. As far as prituzes is concerned, why not go directly into graduate school, provided one attends a Yeshiva with college equivelent accreditation, as suggested above.

Last edited by milwaukee; 05-27-2005 at 02:39 PM.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 02:57 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee
Mitzad the Rebbe opinion regarding college, btw, is there a distinction b/w undergraduate and graduate, law school, med school etc ?

There seems to be a very pronounced differences in that the environment is more studies oreinted, the classes are limited to specific discplines that usually dont conflict with Judiasm. Its helathier overall.............

That being the case, many Yeshivas (morristown for one) offer BAs that will be accepted by Law Schools. I know several people who went from attaining their BA from Yeshiva, to going straight into Law School.

Would going that route be a better idea!?!
Frankly, for those that advocate going to college regardless, no matter what, with any number of justifications, using rationales that the Rebbe specifically rejected - I don’t see the relevance of this question or its answer.
Tangentially, I know people who went the Law School route, and notwithstanding their great maalos etc etc, were adversely affected.
Excuse me, I forget: It is all a question of geography (maybe) ...
Don't get me wrong: If someone goes to college, he has my best wishes for hatzlocho, and may he/she grow from strength to strength in yiddishkeit, chassidishkeit and (most importantly) yiras shomayim, in addition to success in their studies and future parnoso. Just don't mix (or to use the Rebbe's language in this context: shlep) the Rebbe into it.
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Unread 05-27-2005, 03:31 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee
1. Amen, I second that. You must realise, however, that making money can benfit others not just yourself. Don't assume everyone with money is selfish. I know plenty of people who make 100k+ salaries who dont live extravegently but use lots of their money to help others.

2. Moreover, living an ascetic lifestyle, is hepich Judaism value of using the material world for g-dly purpose

3. As far as prituzes is concerned, why not go directly into graduate school, provided one attends a Yeshiva with college equivelent accreditation, as suggested above.
1. I never said otherwise. I just said that money isn't the key to mental, spiritual, or physical health. Giving Tzedokko is a big mitzvah, and the AR devotes some time in Tanya to the advantages of having a job, etc. etc.

2. This statement is problematic. What do you mean by an ascetic lifestyle? If you mean living in a monestary wearing a single robe with a sash, then I agree. But if you mean avoiding involvment with the physical world, then I'll tell you that Chassidus teaches just that! I don't know exactly what you were trying to advance here. Making money isn't heipech Yiddishkeit. Going to college (in most circumstances) is (at least according to the Rebbe)!

3. This is a good kav haemtzoe (middle road).
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Unread 05-27-2005, 05:37 PM   #267
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Hey Meshulam. No one is really disagreeing with your main point- money doesn't always bring happiness. There are plenty of wonderful people who are happy living paycheck to paycheck and being able to barely make ends meet. There are also people who are not able to make ends meet and are happy to take money from welfare and foodstamps. Then there are those of us who would like to pay full tuition for our kids, have shabbos guests, have cars that run and be able to pay for an exterminator when the kids start playing with the roaches. I also did not say anything about having to make 80K. I am just pointing out that with a college/graduate education, you are more likely to be able to pay your bills than without one. That is all. On the subject of happiness, I agree with you. Happiness is not ensured by money. On the other hand I have first hand experience with poverty and now I also work with families and children in poverty, and I see how it is usually crushing. There are probably very special people who can be happy and be poor, but for most of us it is very stressful. I am also just curious why I am getting so many arguments. Instead I would like to hear from these people who are able to provide for their families without having gone to university. I am hoping to hear from at least 5 of you.
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Unread 05-29-2005, 12:41 AM   #268
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I went to Cope Vocational many years ago--and in 3 months received a Certificate of Completion for a computer training course. Four years later, I was already a project leader, and had programmers with BSc's reporting to me.
Incidentally, I know plenty of people who earn far more than me, and yet have problems providing for the needs of their families. Ve'dal.
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Unread 05-29-2005, 02:09 PM   #269
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the issue is not making 80 000 its the issue of getting a job and suppote your family in a few years whiile your husband is sitting and learning or doing shlicus how else is your family going to survive, your parents nor in laws going to support you foever? are they?

but taday you dont have to go to universatity or college but you can do it online and pay less for what your paying to go to college or universaty
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Unread 05-30-2005, 08:05 PM   #270
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im doin it mitsad kibud av vaem!!!
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Unread 05-30-2005, 08:06 PM   #271
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who knows about ottawa's university????????????????????
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Unread 05-30-2005, 09:12 PM   #272
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im doin it mitsad kibud av vaem!!!
...which is a shaalo for a competent Rabbi whether kibbud av applies in such a situation.
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Unread 05-31-2005, 03:25 PM   #273
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t613,

When someone he is doing something mitzad kibad av v eim, they rarely mean that they went through the sugya, convened a beis-din, or asked a poseik. He probably means that he has personally judged that making his parents happy is a value too important to him to sacrifice to a potential psak that there might be a problem with his decision.

A similar example of a different issue involves a woman I knew who told me she would not pursue the study of Taharas Hamishpacha "because of sholom bayis". Psak was not an issue. She was saying that since her husband refused to consider it, she made a decision that divorce is not what she wants.

(I'm comparing the attitude alone, not the severity of the issue.)

Klal Yisroel is filled with such decisions every day.
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Unread 11-07-2009, 08:31 PM   #274
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Graduate Programs

If one gets permission from their MASHPIA is it okay then to go to College/ Graduate School?
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Unread 11-07-2009, 08:51 PM   #275
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I'm not into getting "permission" from a mashpiah. But the way the concept of a Mashpiah works, if the mashpiah is agreeable to the idea of college or grad school, then that is the closest thing we have today to the Rebbe being okay with it.

Its probably a good idea, however, to continue checking in with the Mashpiah as the program unfolds to see that things are going the way they should. And the same is true if the mashpiah suggests some alternative to college.
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