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Unread 02-03-2010, 02:38 PM   #1
Dove99%pure
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Why do we continue to view the world through our perspective, even when the true, real perspective- Hashem's, has been made known to us?

ex: above/ below
gashmiyus/ ruchniyus
galus/ geulah
Hashem's female and male names

Last edited by Dove99%pure; 02-04-2010 at 04:04 PM.
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Unread 02-05-2010, 12:38 PM   #2
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Unread 02-05-2010, 12:53 PM   #3
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Because one cannot to pretend to be something he is not.
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Unread 02-05-2010, 01:06 PM   #4
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I think this has the beginnings of a good question. But I'm curious what you mean when you say that the "real perspective has been made known to us." Obviously, we know that the "Real Perspective" is G-d's, but how has that perspective (other than its mere existence) been made known to us?
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Unread 02-07-2010, 02:07 PM   #5
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Because one cannot to pretend to be something he is not.
And, so therefore?

Nobody needs to become Hashem. Once they learn the correct perspective and understand it (at least somewhat) they can change their view- Does this make any sense to you?
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Unread 02-07-2010, 02:10 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
I think this has the beginnings of a good question.
A question is only as good as its answer, so...
(by-the-way, why does it only have a good beginning?)

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But I'm curious what you mean when you say that the "real perspective has been made known to us." Obviously, we know that the "Real Perspective" is G-d's, but how has that perspective (other than its mere existence) been made known to us?
You're going to be dissapointed, Meshulam. Nothing major here. All I meant is that whenever the person hears it or learns it. As soon as he realizes that his perspective is false- why doesn't he change?
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Unread 02-07-2010, 03:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dove99%pure View Post
A question is only as good as its answer, so...
(by-the-way, why does it only have a good beginning?)
Where did you get that idea?
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You're going to be dissapointed, Meshulam. Nothing major here. All I meant is that whenever the person hears it or learns it. As soon as he realizes that his perspective is false- why doesn't he change?
What are you talking about? This answer doesn't help me understand what you mean at all.
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Unread 02-07-2010, 04:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Where did you get that idea?
You said this has the beginning of a good question.


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What are you talking about? This answer doesn't help me understand what you mean at all.
I mean whenever a person learns about it first- 5th grade/11th grade/while reading Zohar hidden in a cave/ in an article on Chabad.org/ when your study partner explains it to you/ 3 a.m. while pondering in bed.... whenever. As soon as you chap that what you've been thinking 'til now is in reality, very different.

ex: Max always thought that above and below are absolute _____ (I don't know what the word is, dimensions? things?) He is reading a sefer and discovers that to Hashem there is no above and below.

Is it clear now?
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Unread 02-07-2010, 06:45 PM   #9
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Its one thing to read about something and recognize that it makes sense. Its quite another to see the world through that perspective. Even if we read a very convincing argument that the world is an illusion, it is difficult if not impossible not to believe one's own eyes.

Very timely, take a look at some of the sichos that discuss the concept of the Jews "Seeing the sounds" at the giving of the Torah. There's probably an article on Chabad.org as well... does anyone have a source to offer.
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Unread 02-07-2010, 07:36 PM   #10
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Then I really don't understand the question. When most people learn something new, they adapt their perspective to fit their new understanding.
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Unread 02-10-2010, 09:58 PM   #11
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Its a wonderful question and another reason I asked you where you live Dove so you can go learn the real thing with someone non-virtual.

In Chabad chassidic terms you are asking that once a person grasps Yichud Ila, why do they continue to live a life of Yichud Tata?

This is answered in many places but especially the Rebbe Rashab's
http://store.kehotonline.com/index.p...temsperpage=10
Kuntres Etz HACHAYIM.

We continue to live the lower life since if a person attempted to live just the upper life, they would cease to exist as an indepedent entity.
Nonetheless, as stated therein, while living the lower life, its a good thing to inject some upper unity awareness now and then to stay on track.
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Unread 02-11-2010, 05:49 PM   #12
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Why do we continue to view the world through our perspective, even when the true, real perspective- Hashem's, has been made known to us?

I don't really grasp the deep meaning of your question, but it seems to be a good question for Yoshke's disciples.
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Unread 02-11-2010, 08:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
Why do we continue to view the world through our perspective, even when the true, real perspective- Hashem's, has been made known to us?

I don't really grasp the deep meaning of your question, but it seems to be a good question for Yoshke's disciples.
Not only the deep meaning you don't grasp, but not even the simple meaning.
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Unread 02-11-2010, 08:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dove99%pure View Post
Why do we continue to view the world through our perspective, even when the true, real perspective- Hashem's, has been made known to us?

ex: above/ below
gashmiyus/ ruchniyus
galus/ geulah
Hashem's female and male names
You are describing daas Elyon and daas Tachton.

The goal is not negate daas Tachton, but to integrate the two views.

Quote:
There are three possible conceptions [of His unity]: one that relates to daas tachton (man's perceptive), one to daas elyon (the sublime perspective), and a level that transcends both.

http://sichos-in-english.com/books/l...ebbe-3/120.htm
Quote:
..."a multitude of approaches within knowledge." [More specifically, this refers to] daas elyon ("the sublime knowledge") and daas tachton ("the lower knowledge"). These are alluded to by the use of the plural form of the word "knowledge" in the verse: "The L-rd is a G-d of knowledge." ("Kel de'os Havayah") [In this context,] there is a well-known teaching from the Alter Rebbe that [these two approaches] must be united and, moreover, that the higher [approach] and the lower [approach] must be fused together. This is implied by the verse, "G-d is a G-d of knowledge," i.e., He fuses both approaches within knowledge together.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ption-2/02.htm
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Unread 02-11-2010, 11:11 PM   #15
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Yankel .....Wonderfully rephrased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769
Why do we continue to view the world through our perspective, even when the true, real perspective- Hashem's, has been made known to us?

I don't really grasp the deep meaning of your question, but it seems to be a good question for Yoshke's disciples.

Not only the deep meaning you don't grasp, but not even the simple meaning.
Obviously, Mosheh5769 has never learned Chabad chassidus inside.
A Nu generation.
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Unread 02-12-2010, 12:27 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
I don't really grasp the deep meaning of your question
Did I ever claim it was deep? Does every question have to be deep?

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but it seems to be a good question for Yoshke's disciples.
Look Moshe5759, I usually try not to take things written on an online forum too much to heart- but I think you've gone too far on this one. You can call me idiotic, not knowledgeable, confused, wrong or anything of that kind but this? Kindly take back your words, or at least say why you would say something as horrible as this.
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Unread 02-13-2010, 04:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Not only the deep meaning you don't grasp, but not even the simple meaning.
That's right.
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Unread 02-13-2010, 08:18 PM   #18
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I think I've been very, very, very misunderstood. I do not know which way you understood my statement, but I do not think it is in the same direction as me.

I will have for a long time (even still) to stop talking in Remez.

(I think it would have been more appropriate in the Jokes' thread)
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Unread 02-13-2010, 11:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
I think I've been very, very, very misunderstood. I do not know which way you understood my statement, but I do not think it is in the same direction as me.

I will have for a long time (even still) to stop talking in Remez.
Yes, please do. Especially if it isn't at all obvious that you are talking in remez.
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Unread 02-17-2010, 08:19 PM   #20
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Its a wonderful question and another reason I asked you where you live Dove so you can go learn the real thing with someone non-virtual.
Actually I did try...
It's not so simple as everybody here makes it sound. You've got to find somebody who is sort of on the same page as you... I have to find somebody who has time... Who's personality fits mine...

I haven't yet succeeded...


Quote:
In Chabad chassidic terms you are asking that once a person grasps Yichud Ila, why do they continue to live a life of Yichud Tata?
Now I understand my question better- thanks!

Quote:
This is answered in many places but especially the Rebbe Rashab's
http://store.kehotonline.com/index.p...temsperpage=10
Kuntres Etz HACHAYIM.
My internet filter blocked this site, so I couldn't open it- thanks anyways.

Quote:
We continue to live the lower life since if a person attempted to live just the upper life, they would cease to exist as an indepedent entity.
Why?

Quote:
Nonetheless, as stated therein, while living the lower life, its a good thing to inject some upper unity awareness now and then to stay on track.
Is that the only purpose having "Yichud Ila"? Is "Yichud Tata" false or not?
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Unread 03-15-2010, 09:42 PM   #21
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I really don't understrand this... and it keeps cropping up...

this might make my question seem clearer:

I've always learned that Nes and Teva are the same thing, only it seems to us that they are different.

If they are the same thing then why do we only say Hallel for Nissim and not for Teva (everyday miracles...)? The answer I got to this question was that we don't perceive it as a miracle.

Hence my question, what difference does our perception/ comprehension make, if what's real is real and what is fake (no matter how real it seems) is fake?
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Unread 03-16-2010, 09:28 PM   #22
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Anyone?
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Unread 03-16-2010, 10:59 PM   #23
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Our perception is just as real as his, because He so chose-to exist equally within both realities.
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Unread 03-18-2010, 08:47 PM   #24
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Our perception is just as real as his, because He so chose-to exist equally within both realities.
Do we equally exist?

I don't see how this serves as an answer. If there's no such thing as Teva, because Teva is really a Neis, then the idea that there exist something called Teva is false- not just a different perception...

An a view that is false should be rejected- no?
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Unread 03-18-2010, 11:55 PM   #25
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You've been affected by too much goyish philosophy. You are missing the point.
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