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Unread 03-19-2010, 11:31 AM   #26
chossidnistar
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ein od milvado

Hashem is the only existence

there are different levels of existence
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:07 PM   #27
Dove99%pure
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Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
You've been affected by too much goyish philosophy. You are missing the point.
You write very strongly, Gevurah. I hope you have a way to justify your words...

I haven't read any Goyish Philosophy- so how could I be affected by it? What have I said that makes you say this?

I am missing the point? Quite understandable, as I am the one with the question... Would you mind helping me get the point?
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
ein od milvado

Hashem is the only existence

there are different levels of existence
Okay, so how does this answer the question?
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Unread 03-21-2010, 12:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dove99%pure View Post
Do we equally exist?
Of course we do. G-d created us.

I don't see how this serves as an answer. If there's no such thing as Teva, because Teva is really a Neis, then the idea that there exist something called Teva is false- not just a different perception...
the term miracle is as it relates to nature...
An a view that is false should be rejected- no?
Not necessarily false and not necessarily rejected.
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Unread 03-21-2010, 12:39 AM   #30
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The above is a mistake. Mods- please delete.
Quote:
Do we equally exist?
Of course we do. G-d created us.

Quote:
I don't see how this serves as an answer. If there's no such thing as Teva, because Teva is really a Neis, then the idea that there exist something called Teva is false- not just a different perception...
This is not an answer just a comment. Neis is a term as it relates to nature.

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An a view that is false should be rejected- no?
Not necessarily. False or rejectionable.
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Unread 03-21-2010, 02:06 AM   #31
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Nissim come from shem Havayeh and teva comes from shem Elokim; of course they are different.
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Unread 03-21-2010, 08:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Nissim come from shem Havayeh and teva comes from shem Elokim; of course they are different.
But the Shem Havayeh and Elokim are also really one!
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Unread 03-21-2010, 08:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mvakeshet View Post
Of course we do. G-d created us.
How does this prove that He created us to exist as equally as Him?

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Not necessarily. False or rejectionable.
And why not?
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Unread 03-21-2010, 11:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
But the Shem Havayeh and Elokim are also really one!
From a higher perspective they are one, but from a lower perspective, they are not.

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How does this prove that He created us to exist as equally as Him?
We don't exist in a way that's equal to Hashem's existence. As Rambam writes at the beginning of Mishneh Torah, we depend on Him, while He depends on nothing. Thus, His existence is a true existence, while ours is not.
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Unread 03-21-2010, 08:47 PM   #35
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We don't exist in a way that's equal to Hashem's existence. As Rambam writes at the beginning of Mishneh Torah, we depend on Him, while He depends on nothing. Thus, His existence is a true existence, while ours is not.
That's what I thought too, but I didn't have any sources to quote. Then TasteandSee said this:
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Originally Posted by TasteAndSee View Post
Our perception is just as real as his, because He so chose-to exist equally within both realities.
~~~

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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
From a higher perspective they are one, but from a lower perspective, they are not.
Right. And the higher perspective is the true one, because the lower perspective only sees them as separate because it is blinded by the concealment of tzimtzum... So back to square one, why do we continue to go with the lower perspective?
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Unread 03-21-2010, 09:51 PM   #36
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C"V. If you are not trolling.... you seem to be caught in the Ben Zoma paradox oy vey
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Unread 03-22-2010, 10:56 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dove99%pure View Post
Right. And the higher perspective is the true one, because the lower perspective only sees them as separate because it is blinded by the concealment of tzimtzum... So back to square one, why do we continue to go with the lower perspective?
Try it and see what happens...

But seriously this is the whole idea of Dira betachtonim--to be united with Hashem in the state of the lower perspective. This is what Hashem wants. And "on a taiva you can't ask 'why?'".
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Unread 03-22-2010, 12:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
C"V. If you are not trolling.... you seem to be caught in the Ben Zoma paradox oy vey
If you don't want to be understood by anybody other than yourself- why do you bother to reply? I haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about...
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Unread 03-22-2010, 12:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Intrigued View Post
Try it and see what happens...
I'm missing some kinda joke here- I should try what?

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But seriously this is the whole idea of Dira betachtonim--to be united with Hashem in the state of the lower perspective. This is what Hashem wants.
Dira B'tachtonim means the lower perspective? The people who truly were making this world into a dira for Hashem- weren't they the ones who really saw everything as one- like R' Chanina ben Dosa- think of the famous story with his vinegar candles...

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And "on a taiva you can't ask 'why?'"
I think I'm more asking 'how'.

Maybe if you could expand on this thought- I would understand what you mean...
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Unread 03-24-2010, 10:51 PM   #40
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If you don't want to be understood by anybody other than yourself- why do you bother to reply? I haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about...
If you do not know at least the story (forget the meaning) of the 4 who entered Pardes and what happened to each of them, you have no context to understanding spiritual reality and various perspectives in a Jewish Context.

I could only but assume that in your reading of Rabbi Kaplan or surfing online that you can across this but I am seeing that you know far less than I thought as I do not spend the same time here as I did long ago.

I suggested you find a real non-virtual teacher and even offered
The one thing about this forum as one cannot tell who the people really are...
That is why there have been debates that sources are necessary to substantiate comments.

Now that I have a free minute as I am not making sugar water tonite, indeed then answer to your whol question is found in that story. Alternatively, if I am not following you could also check out a Chassidic Heritage Series book from Kehos called "True Existence"
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Unread 03-26-2010, 02:50 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
If you do not know at least the story (forget the meaning) of the 4 who entered Pardes and what happened to each of them, you have no context to understanding spiritual reality and various perspectives in a Jewish Context.
I only know that it says that 4 people entered pardes, meaning tried to learn Torah on all 4 levels, p'shat, remez, d'rash and sod. Of the 4 of them only one- what's the word, survived? Was successful? Remained sane?

Is this Ben Zoma's paradox? What is Ben Zoma's paradox?

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I could only but assume that in your reading of Rabbi Kaplan or surfing online that you can across this
By the way, what do you mean by this? This question? I think it is a perfectly legitimate question, and if you disagree- aderaba, tell me why?

I have read some other stuff besides for R' Aryeh Kaplan's "Chassidic Masters," y'know...

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but I am seeing that you know far less than I thought as I do not spend the same time here as I did long ago.
Wow! This is an awesome example of a double edged compliment!

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Now that I have a free minute as I am not making sugar water tonite, indeed then answer to your whol question is found in that story.
The pardes story?

Quote:
Alternatively, if I am not following you could also check out a Chassidic Heritage Series book from Kehos called "True Existence"
First of all, thanks for suggesting the book, I would like to try it... Perhaps you could say what you think I am asking, I would be able to see if you are following, and maybe save myself some $$$ buying a book...

Last edited by Dove99%pure; 03-28-2010 at 11:22 AM.
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Unread 03-29-2010, 12:05 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
I could only but assume that in your reading of Rabbi Kaplan or surfing online that you can across this
Actually, this question came up while I was learning Sha'ar Hayichud Veha'emuna, where the Alter Rebbe explains that the reason we aren't nullified within our source is because we see ourselves as detached, separate entities. This made me wonder what difference it makes what we see ourselves as, if in truth we are not separate entities.
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