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Unread 11-15-2008, 08:09 PM   #1
existwhere?
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Chabad clothing stores

Are there Lubavitch clothing stores that sell exclusively tzniusdik clothing?
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Unread 11-16-2008, 12:16 AM   #2
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there is a store on in the center of crown heights called kiderific which sells exclusively tznius clothing. they have a website, was mentioned once on the site. do a search. iirc it's tzniuschildren.com
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Unread 11-16-2008, 05:27 AM   #3
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There's also 2 non-Lubavitch online stores, belowtheknee.com (which is currently not functional since the owners are moving) and funkyfrum.com. They're both quite good.
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Unread 11-16-2008, 09:07 AM   #4
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Are there Lubavitch clothing stores that sell exclusively tzniusdik clothing?
BS"D

As I know the family personally and know how dedicated they are to tznius, I can say with a 95% certainty (which would be 100% if I were female and had ever looked at their stock) Top Fashion on Kingston Ave sells only tzniusdige clothing (unless someone takes something that is meant to be worn over a long sleeved top and wears it alone, which I assume is possible from my own experiences liquidating clothing in a place where dressing the opposite of tznius is the goal).
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Unread 11-16-2008, 10:26 AM   #5
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I don't know about that particular store (though I guess I can find out), but judging the contents of a store by knowing the family - is in my experience far from foolproof.
Stores stock and sell that which sells (which is the standard excuse of stores on Kingston - why stock stuff which people won't buy?).
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Unread 11-16-2008, 10:29 AM   #6
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I don't know about that particular store (though I guess I can find out), but judging the contents of a store by knowing the family - is in my experience far from foolproof.
Stores stock and sell that which sells (which is the standard excuse of stores on Kingston - why stock stuff which people won't buy?).
BS"D

Because by stocking that which their particular customers will buy, they retain those particular customers. Tznius violations are NOT at a 100% level in CH yet. Besides, I think that with the financial crisis dethroning the mortgage and stock manipulator/leased Lexus crowd from their self-appointed positions as fashion and social arbiters for the shchuna, people will return to tznius as they realize that their former mentors have zero ruchnius and less than zero gashmius.
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Unread 11-16-2008, 10:31 AM   #7
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I hear. But conjecture nonetheless.
Maybe the female crowd can weigh in if it is really so.
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Unread 11-16-2008, 10:41 AM   #8
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After hearing about one of these 'amazing' stores in CH, I walked into one of them to see what all the fuss was about. After looking around for about five minutes, I left muttering something under my breath about what a בושה וחרפה the tznius there was. It would be much easier to find something tznius in Meah Shearim or Boro Park. I imagine that someone who wants to dress in an untznius way would buy in CH, though.

It's not much better than shopping in Castro, Old Navy, Zara, or Walmart, except that you would expect a higher standard, which wasn't delivered.
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Last edited by Majorthinker; 11-18-2008 at 02:28 PM. Reason: clarification
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Unread 11-16-2008, 10:46 AM   #9
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P.S.- Now that I am in Israel, I go to Meah Shearim/ Geula FIRST. Usually, within an hour, I have what I was looking for.
BS"D

And how long does it take before you are greeted by the bleach and egg gangs ?
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Unread 11-16-2008, 12:40 PM   #10
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Never, B"H. I look too much like part of their community to be bleached.
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Unread 11-16-2008, 01:14 PM   #11
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Never, B"H. I look too much like part of their community to be bleached.
BS"D

But the latest fashion in Y-m is a red dress with a random white blotch across it!
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Unread 11-16-2008, 03:03 PM   #12
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Is it? I didn't realize...
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Unread 11-16-2008, 03:07 PM   #13
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Is it? I didn't realize...
BS"D

Yes, of course. All you have to do is buy a red dress or even a red sweater anywhere you want and the Mea Shearim-Geula Mobile Volunteer Clothing Alterations Gemach will handle the bleach part!
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Unread 11-16-2008, 08:04 PM   #14
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BS"D
I can say with a 95% certainty (which would be 100% if I were female and had ever looked at their stock) Top Fashion on Kingston Ave sells only tzniusdige clothing
Based on my inquires from my local "Ezras Noshim" - this is not quite true, though they are a bit better than most in the variety they offer, but nonetheless they serve whatever the customer wants.
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Unread 11-17-2008, 12:49 AM   #15
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Another point: almost anything can be made tzniusdik with an undertop and/or a skirt underneath (i.e. one that;s too tight to wear by itself). That is, of course, if the style is ok to begin with.
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Unread 11-17-2008, 02:01 AM   #16
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There are some styles that are tznius k'halacha, but so eye-catching that they will never actually be tznius.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 08:31 AM   #17
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A number of years ago I walked into a so called frum store on Kingston near montgomery to find some very questionable items. When I asked about the kashrus of such clothes the lady said to me that there are goim that buy there too and that's why she sells that stuff. I told her that I completely disagree - being that the majority of customers are frum jews in Crown Heights she must maintain complete kashrus in order not to lead anyone astray by feeding into these treifos with a false justification. The same goes for the Celebrations store that has very immodest cards which impurify our childrens' minds - and the same goes for the Doar on Kingston and Crown that sells treife papers and magazines. When I tried to correct them nicely they said "well if we don't sell it then people will just go to a different store to get it so why should we lose customers"? - To which I replied that you can't sell pig to attrract customers even if they do go buy it some where else.(The same din applies to clothing) The beis din of Crown Heights 15 years ago cracked down on them forcing them to remove 60% of the immodest goiyshe magazines but the other 40 % stills remains as far as I know.

Concerning frum clothings stores the Rebbe said that and appropriate person should approach the owner and explain to them in a pleasant way about the utmost importance of selling exclusively tznius clothing in order to save am yisroel from this pritzus epidemic by making tznius clothing more available to them.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 09:28 AM   #18
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BS"D

If the clothing store does not also have things that cater to goyim, it would suffer because CH is now not only Jewish and black but also attracts yuppies and artists.

Then what would happen is that a designer boutique, non Jewish owned, would replace it.

People have to eat; it is very easy to be frum on yenner's cheshbon. These stores support large families with many expenses; in some cases they are run by women whose husbands are melamdim or otherwise barely paid community employees.

In fact if it were not for the crisis, I would fear for the continued existence of Jewish Kingston Avenue even with its faults. Rents were getting too high for the small Jewish stores and with the new influx of non-Jewish residents, the stores are ripe for the picking. The only way to save it in the long term is for the often unattractive and poorly organized stores to move into the 21st century and fix up so that Anash in CH no longer feel compelled to shop in Boro Park.

When I left CH, there were plenty of "white trash" moving in; people who are involved with alternative lifestyles and who are far worse than the many decent Caribbean families who live on "unzerer" side of Eastern Parkway. It has probably stopped because these people are not able to get mortgages anymore.

On the other hand, Doar does not need to display those magazines; people can always ask for them. That store is run by people who are not a great example to the community.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 09:41 AM   #19
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Are there Lubavitch clothing stores ...
I wasn't aware that a store could be Lubavitch!

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Unread 11-19-2008, 09:47 AM   #20
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You know it's a clear din in Shulchan Aruch - that a Jew is not allowed to sell treife food even for the purpose of making a living. On the contrary, by selling exclusively kosher clothing we are in turn taking Hashem as our partner who surely never stays in debt for doing such loyal business as caring for his children especially in an area where we are hurting so bad in tznius today.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 09:50 AM   #21
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On the contrary, by selling exclusively kosher clothing
So, just out of curiosity, lingerie stores are not allowed?

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Unread 11-19-2008, 09:58 AM   #22
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You know it's a clear din in Shulchan Aruch - that a Jew is not allowed to sell treife food even for the purpose of making a living. On the contrary, by selling exclusively kosher clothing we are in turn taking Hashem as our partner who surely never stays in debt for doing such loyal business as caring for his children especially in an area where we are hurting so bad in tznius today.
BS"D

How do you know that the owner is not telling her frum clientele to avoid buying the non-tznius pieces? That is a bigger kiddush Hashem than not carrying them in the first place.

I had once liquidated clothing on-line and I inadvertently had 2 pieces that were not meant for the frum audience to whom I geared my online store - I labeled them as such and listed the measurements so there would be no question (in the end a non-Jew abroad bought them from me). I have had a frum merchant tell me something was "not for me" (IIRC it was a sweater that had an objectionable logo which I did not notice) and a frum travel agent advise me against booking a connecting flight via a certain city that at the time had no Jewish facilities and was and is known for pritzus.

And where is your clear din? You must mean no selling treyf food to JEWS because this has come up in my business dealings and I was told it was 100% muttar to sell it to goyim. There are many frum Jews in the food distribution industry who deal with treyf food which they sell to large institutions and chains.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 10:56 AM   #23
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BS"D

How do you know that the owner is not telling her frum clientele to avoid buying the non-tznius pieces? That is a bigger kiddush Hashem than not carrying them in the first place.
Don't be naive.
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And where is your clear din? You must mean no selling treyf food to JEWS because this has come up in my business dealings and I was told it was 100% muttar to sell it to goyim. There are many frum Jews in the food distribution industry who deal with treyf food which they sell to large institutions and chains.
Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De'ah Siman 117 - a clear din (concerning food). Those Jews found heterim, obviously. But the issue is not simple.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #24
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Don't be naive.Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De'ah Siman 117 - a clear din (concerning food). Those Jews found heterim, obviously. But the issue is not simple.
BS"D

Well, then, there must be a clear heter because this has come up not once, but many times, for me and every time I was told I could do it even though I don't think I ever did.

The most recent time it came up, I was told that the treyf product could be sold in a country that is majority goyim and that so long as it remained that way I could get involved, but not to involve non-frum Jews from E"Y because of the chashash in this particular case that they could develop the product for export to E"Y.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #25
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Don't be naive..
BS"D

Depending on which store it is, I could see the owner doing just that. On the other hand I know full well that there are stores that are part of the problem, but still, goyim do shop in our stores and there is NO clear halacha against selling non-tznius clothing to goyim because if there were, many ehrliche frum Yidden in the schmatte business would have been forced to choose another line of business.
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