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Unread 02-09-2011, 11:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post
You are ignoring the much more modern book from artscroll which states the exact same thing, all of them for the past fifty years. this regards to the issue of non-glatte lungs. (which are, according to all of them, kosher. and if you'd bother to look up the sources, you'll see that you're interpretation of the issue, being that we also hold that what the rama allows is glatte, is bogus and downright wrong.

thats the first problem. This doesn't mean that the animals are treif.

however, the neveilut issue is something else, and also difficult.
You were the one that brought up sources from the 50's and 80's that you wouldn't even gives names to "because no one ever heard of them" and then plugged an artscroll book at the end of them. Why are you ignoring the fact that you made the original statement?

My interpretation isn't bogus and downright wrong as it is based on learning and REAL LIFE experience, which it seems you have little or none of the former, and certainly none of the latter.

You said many times that it DOES mean its treif, as this was the reason I have wasted minutes debating a brick wall. The nevelut issue was not discussed until later when you realized your glass floor of an argument shattered from under you. quick subject change.

I don't have access to the artscroll book but i'll find it somehow unless you want to type up your source that says. Shochtim don't check their knives anymore 50% are neveilus and the 50% that make it out only 1 of them is actually kosher, ending up with 1 glatte kosher behamah for every 10.

Ludicrous doesn't even do justice to this now comical discussion. Can I have two witnesses here?
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Unread 02-22-2011, 04:14 AM   #52
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Unread 07-14-2011, 10:15 AM   #53
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The following came into my "in" box. While not directly addressing the issues discussed above, I think it interesting in that it adds a bit of perspective on glatt vs non-glatt from someone actually in the field.
I know the writers, nonetheless I deleted their names "to protect the innocent". The person working for the OU is known as both knowledgable and a yorei shomayim, so any snide silly remarks (if any) best be kept to yourself.
Also, the writers are working from the premise that Glatt is a hiddur.
I have no informed opinion on all this - I am just passing this along.
At times one hears people wonder why the OU certifies only glatt kosher meat. "Wouldn't meat be less expensive if one could buy reliable non-glatt (plain) kosher meat? After all, in Europe most people ate non-glatt kosher meat, so why does the OU insist upon glatt?"

I posted the following on ...:

My understanding from Rabbi XYZ of the OU is that it is almost impossible to give reliable supervision on non-glatt kosher meat, given the nature of the way kosher meat is produced today. I do not want to put words in his mouth, so I am bccing him on this post. I am confident that if I have misconstrued what he once told me, then he will respond.

Rabbi XYZ did indeed respond and his response is below.

R. Y... is correct. Although 50 years ago, eating only glatt was a chumra, nowadays it is necessary for adequate supervision. You can ask REMT [Rabbi Elazar M. Teitz of Elizabeth, NJ.] about how meat production has changed: his father used to supervise a few shlachthayzer near Elizabeth, and they were all small productions. Later on, kosher meat producers began to move production out closer to where the cattle were (interesting fact: during the 1920s, live cattle were shipped by rail to the NY area by all meat companies, solely because of kosher production; treifene production had already moved to the Midwest). The factories out in the meat growing areas were built to slaughter hundreds of head a day, and the speed was much faster. To do an adequate plain kosher production in plants one would have to slow down production speed by half or more, and also hire more people (a separate bodek is required in most situations; you need more mashgichim and more workers), and that would also require redesigning the plant floor to accommodate the other bodek and other matters).

A complete discussion of what would be required and the production and financial implications is not suitable here. However, three points emerge from a dispassionate analysis of modern meat plants and productions and kosher requirements:

1) It is still feasible to do plain kosher at small local productions, such as the one by the Vaad HaIr of St. Louis, which does only a couple of dozen cattle a week (in point of fact, though, I believe that the Vaad haIr only accepts glatt).

2) Plain kosher would be significantly more expensive than glatt. (It takes a lot more time to do the checks than to reject it as below glatt standards).

3) Productions that did both glatt and plain kosher would have much higher costs than productions that just do glatt, and so the price of glatt from those productions would also be higher. (Full disclosure: some OU productions in South America do both glatt, under the OU, and plain kosher. I do not set rules for the plain kosher, since it is not accepted by the OU, but in the one plant where it is done where I completely approve of the setup, the number of kosher personnel goes up by 50% when plain kosher is produced. And this plant underwent a complete reconstruction, with kosher requirements involved in every step of the design and construction, that would have cost millions in the US. Furthermore, additional Gentile workers are necessary for plain kosher production, and workers are cheap in S. America.)

Those who claim that the OUs shift to only glatt meat is simply a political matter are misinformed. I am not saying that the individuals making the decision may not have had political considerations in the mind as the decisive factor. I am saying that even if no such policy decision had been made, the rabbis in the meat group at the OU would not certify plain kosher. And I speak as a disciple of RYBS, who had a plain kosher production.

Rabbi XYZ
The Orthodox Union
11 Broadway, New York, NY 10004
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