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Unread 11-05-2008, 02:44 PM   #1
shmeichel
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Reason for sheitel

The Rebbe seem to have given several reasons to prefer sheitels:
  • women who would not otherwise cover their hair, or would have great difficulty doing so, will agree to do it, because they will still look good, if not better;
  • women will not be tempted to expose some of their natural hair from the head covering;
  • women will not be tempted to remove their head covering when in circumstances that they would feel pressure to do so in order to meet a certain expectation of beauty.
I think I've seen all these reasons given in the Rebbe's letters and sichos.

However, there appears to be another reason. One of the roles of a wife is to protect her husband from forbidden thoughts. Thus, the Torah says that she should look attractive for her husband in all time periods; especially in the modern atmosphere of looseness, an attractive wife is necessary so that the husband will not entertain thoughts of other women, chas v'sholom. There is no question that the average man finds a sheitel more attractive than any other head covering (the small minority who don't care are not relevant, because "beteilo daatom" compared to the majority). Thus, wearing a sheitel is necessary davka in our times for reasons of promoting sholom bayis and kedushas Yisroel, and thus prishus in this area with the claim that a sheitel is inherently pritzus chas v'sholom (extreme litvish, sfardi, etc. style) is counterproductive. My question is: Did the Rebbe ever mention this reason? (The reason is still valid, of course, but it makes a difference whether the reason was "nichtav v'nechtam b'tabaas hamelech.")
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Unread 11-05-2008, 06:20 PM   #2
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And what of those husbands who prefer tichels?
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Unread 11-06-2008, 04:34 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmeichel View Post
My question is: Did the Rebbe ever mention this reason? (The reason is still valid, of course, but it makes a difference whether the reason was "nichtav v'nechtam b'tabaas hamelech.")
He did not.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 09:20 PM   #4
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Major, the wives of the husbands who prefer tichels should still wear a sheitel according to the Rebbe, at least outside the house, for the other reasons I listed.

Torah613, have any Chabad Rabbonim, or other Rabbonim worthy of note mentioned this reason?
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Unread 11-06-2008, 11:49 PM   #5
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interestingly enough, fwiiw, earlier this week R elyashiv mentioned this very idea - (that the modern sheitel is attractive) - as a reason to ban the modern sheitelach which look like real hair. he calls it 'erva' without a doubt.
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Unread 11-07-2008, 01:17 PM   #6
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IIRC the Rebbe deals with the issue in an answer to R' Moshe Wiener - printed in his book כבודה בת מלך.
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Unread 11-08-2008, 01:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmeichel View Post
Major, the wives of the husbands who prefer tichels should still wear a sheitel according to the Rebbe, at least outside the house, for the other reasons I listed.

Torah613, have any Chabad Rabbonim, or other Rabbonim worthy of note mentioned this reason?
This I am not arguing with; I am simply pointing out that 'wearing a sheitel because the husbands likes it better' is an argument that does not necessarily hold water.
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Unread 11-08-2008, 10:51 PM   #8
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Without getting into the larger discussion of the sheitel issue, I find that women do look very youthful in sheitlech (because sheitels do not turn grey) and that a nice sheitel with a good outfit is certainly an attractive option for any woman.

But... I don't like the "husbands prefer it" argument because its just way too subjective. I personally think hats (and falls) are a lot dressier and a lot more fun. Part of this might be that my mother had a very nice collection of hats when I was growing up, but my point is simply that I do not prefer sheitels and I know that I am not the only one.

With that said... the others reasons given to wear a sheitel also each have their own problems. The point that sheitels can be an attractive option is worth consideration in deciding what to do as a woman, but will not be a catch-all answer any more than the Rebbe's chosen arguments. That's why he gave several different reasons.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 03:07 AM   #9
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What does being attractive have to do with anything?

Is taking an extra step to make yourself attractive (just for the purpose of being attractive) a Chassidish value?
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Unread 11-09-2008, 03:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
I am simply pointing out that 'wearing a sheitel because the husbands likes it better' is an argument that does not necessarily hold water.
Why? In most cases, husbands prefer it, and it therefore helps them keep their thoughts in the proper places. That is a significant consideration. Do you think this is irrelevant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
But... I don't like the "husbands prefer it" argument because its just way too subjective. I personally think hats (and falls) are a lot dressier and a lot more fun. Part of this might be that my mother had a very nice collection of hats when I was growing up, but my point is simply that I do not prefer sheitels and I know that I am not the only one...The point that sheitels can be an attractive option is worth consideration in deciding what to do as a woman, but will not be a catch-all answer any more than the Rebbe's chosen arguments. That's why he gave several different reasons.
Again, I never said that all men prefer sheitels, but they are definitely in the majority. I also never said that this is the only reason to wear a sheitel, in fact I specifically listed other reasons.
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
What does being attractive have to do with anything? Is taking an extra step to make yourself attractive (just for the purpose of being attractive) a Chassidish value?
I take it that you're not married. A wife looking attractive for her husband (obviously, not in a way that violates any principles of tznius, ch"v) is a basic principle in shalom bayis, as is clear from numerous maamarei Chazal. When you're satisfied with what you have, you don't look elsewhere.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 08:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Without getting into the larger discussion of the sheitel issue, I find that women do look very youthful in sheitlech (because sheitels do not turn grey) and that a nice sheitel with a good outfit is certainly an attractive option for any woman.
Sure, but so is a nice mitpachat. Some actually look nicer than a sheitel, and a lot depends on how you tie it.

Quote:
But... I don't like the "husbands prefer it" argument because its just way too subjective. I personally think hats (and falls) are a lot dressier and a lot more fun. Part of this might be that my mother had a very nice collection of hats when I was growing up, but my point is simply that I do not prefer sheitels and I know that I am not the only one.
Ich, I dislike the idea of a sheitel completely. So I guess we agree. In addition, I will restate what you said: Many husbands prefer mitpachot, and not sheitels (and would not care if their wives wanted to wear a mitpachat outside the house).

Quote:
With that said... the others reasons given to wear a sheitel also each have their own problems. The point that sheitels can be an attractive option is worth consideration in deciding what to do as a woman, but will not be a catch-all answer any more than the Rebbe's chosen arguments. That's why he gave several different reasons.
Although all the reasons can be refuted, based on the situation. But I shan't refute them all, simply because I don't have it in me to argue with the Rebbe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
What does being attractive have to do with anything?

Is taking an extra step to make yourself attractive (just for the purpose of being attractive) a Chassidish value?
If you're a married woman, then it can be. Of course, that means not being shlumpy at home- and not drawing attention to yourself in the street. (The women in Meah Shearim look very ugly- dressed all in black, fat, and with no makeup whatsoever, even if they need some. But they DO buy makeup- they just wear it at home, for their husbands. Chabad should take an example from that, IMO.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmeichel View Post
Why? In most cases, husbands prefer it, and it therefore helps them keep their thoughts in the proper places. That is a significant consideration. Do you think this is irrelevant?
No, but again, it depends on the husband....

Quote:
I take it that you're not married. A wife looking attractive for her husband (obviously, not in a way that violates any principles of tznius, ch"v) is a basic principle in shalom bayis, as is clear from numerous maamarei Chazal. When you're satisfied with what you have, you don't look elsewhere.
I take it she isn't even thinking about getting married in the near future. Or spent enough time around married friends.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 08:41 AM   #12
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Don't get sidetracked. Putting attractiveness aside. Bottom line - the mitzvah of covering the hair for a married woman in public is accomplished more meticulously by a sheitle. That's the primary focus. The rest is secondary.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 08:45 AM   #13
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Oy vey. Lav davka.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 08:53 AM   #14
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againl lav davkah.

Its much better accomplished with a tichel or snood.

But, at least as I've always looked at it, in america and western countries, no one covers their hair anymore, and therefore, wearing a tichel might attract alot of attention because you look so different, and therefore, one could argue that the shaitel in our regions is better because technicaly you shouldn't be covering it anyway, but halacha demands that you do, so therefore you use a good shaitel.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 10:27 AM   #15
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Well, here everyone wears mitpachot. Snoods are only in Meah Shearim. Personally..eh, I already stated my preference before.

Raise your hand if you agree.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 10:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmeichel View Post

However, there appears to be another reason. One of the roles of a wife is to protect her husband from forbidden thoughts. Thus, the Torah says that she should look attractive for her husband in all time periods; especially in the modern atmosphere of looseness, an attractive wife is necessary so that the husband will not entertain thoughts of other women, chas v'sholom. There is no question that the average man finds a sheitel more attractive than any other head covering (the small minority who don't care are not relevant, because "beteilo daatom" compared to the majority). Thus, wearing a sheitel is necessary davka in our times for reasons of promoting sholom bayis and kedushas Yisroel, and thus prishus in this area with the claim that a sheitel is inherently pritzus chas v'sholom (extreme litvish, sfardi, etc. style) is counterproductive. My question is: Did the Rebbe ever mention this reason? (The reason is still valid, of course, but it makes a difference whether the reason was "nichtav v'nechtam b'tabaas hamelech.")
BS"D

Yes, but then why do most wives wear a tichel when at home with their husbands? The first three reasons are clear; did the Rebbe mention them or did he just say that a sheitel is the standard for Chassidim?
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Unread 11-19-2008, 12:09 PM   #17
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So wear a tichel all the time....

No, but seriously, the reason is because the necessity of covering one's hair while at home is much more flexible (some hold it is not necessary at all) than when one is outside and strangers are around.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 01:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post

But, at least as I've always looked at it, in america and western countries, no one covers their hair anymore, and therefore, wearing a tichel might attract alot of attention because you look so different, and therefore, one could argue that the shaitel in our regions is better because technicaly you shouldn't be covering it anyway, but halacha demands that you do, so therefore you use a good shaitel.
BS"D

Very true.

Outside of frum neighborhoods, a woman wearing what we would know as a snood or tichel is assumed to be L"A going through chemotherapy chas vesholom.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 05:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
Oy vey. Lav davka.
?! I thought you said "I don't have it in me to argue with the Rebbe"?
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Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
the reason is because the necessity of covering one's hair while at home is much more flexible (some hold it is not necessary at all) than when one is outside and strangers are around.
What about Kimchis:

Quote:
תנו רבנן שבעה בנים היו לה לקימחית וכולן שימשו בכהונה גדולה אמרו לה חכמים: מה עשית שזכית לכך? אמרה להם: מימי לא ראו קורות ביתי קלעי שערי" (יומא מז.).
And the Zohar:
Quote:

הזוהר הקדוש (קכה: ) "אמר רבי חזקיה תונבא ליתי על ההוא בר נש דשבק לאנתתיה דתתחזי משערה דרישה לבר ואתתא דאפיקת משערא דרישה לבר לאתתקנא ביה גרים מסכנותא לביתא גרים דיסתלק חשיבותא מבנהא".

תרגום: אמר רבי חזקיה קללה תבוא על אותו איש המרשה לאישתו שיראה שערה מראשה החוצה, ואישה המוציאה משערות ראשה החוצה, גורמת ענייות לביתה, גורמת שתסתלק החשיבות מבניה.
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Unread 11-19-2008, 07:28 PM   #20
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withheld for the second
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Unread 11-19-2008, 11:17 PM   #21
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Is Kimchis a halocho or a chumra?

Last edited by Torah613; 11-20-2008 at 09:45 AM.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 01:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
?! I thought you said "I don't have it in me to argue with the Rebbe"?
Was I arguing with the Rebbe? I simply meant that I have seen mitpachot that cover the hair much better than some sheitels, which show hair at the back, underneath.

Quote:
What about Kimchis:
Quote:
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Is Kimchis a halocho or a chumra?
Kimchis is to be praised, but she is not halacha. She kept an extreme chumra which earned her a great reward. But what she did is not halacha, it is midat hachassidut, in a major way.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 01:55 AM   #23
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Exactly my point.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 03:06 AM   #24
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I know. For once, we are agreeing. I am supporting your point of view, against noahide's.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 07:18 AM   #25
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?! I thought you said "I don't have it in me to argue with the Rebbe"?

What about Kimchis:


And the Zohar:
which cheilek in zohar? there are three. (parshia works as well.)

when citing zohar you can do it in either of 2 formats: cheilek, amud, derech hamaskil, or parshia amud and derech hamaskil.

but you need to cite either cheilek or amud. (althoguh it wouldn't be that hard to switch to that page in all three volumes and just read the page.)

and I have what to say about kimchi but I am going to make absolutely certain I have the right translation first.
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