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Unread 08-08-2007, 10:45 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Identifying as a Chossid

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Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
Who says any of us are chassidim? All of us, myself included, sitting here arguing on CT....I'm not so sure that counts as being a chassid....maybe a chassidwannabe, but not a chassid.
True we're not in the absolute Itche der Masmid sense, but haTorah lo nitna limalachei ha'shoreis. Despite our faults we are chassidim in the minimal sense, that we have a strong shaychus to the Rebbeim, we learn their Torah and strive to follow their hora'os each person according to his level, seek his guidance on areas relevant to our lives, we are Chasidim, and we should be proud of it. (Obviously, that doesn't mean we should feel smug and satisfied and not try to improve further, but lo beshufteni askinon.)
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Unread 08-08-2007, 07:01 PM   #2
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Question: What happened to the 'Reb' in front of such a chassid's name?

True that 'haTorah lo nitnah l'malachei hashareit', but that doesn't contest the fact that the Rebbe said that the only chassid he had was the Rebbetzin...and if a chassid is mekushar to the Rebbe, although we may have a shaychus, that does not make us chassidim. If you can honestly say that you are mekushar in every sense of the word, then first of all my apologies to you. (Although why would such a person be on CT?) And second- tell me how you did it. But.....mekushar is a word with a very definite definition, and so is chassid.....and though I would like to be one, I am not, and I have seen very few true chassidim. So......I think we should all call ourselves wannabes.

(Does what I said bother you so much that you felt a need to start a thread on it?)
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Unread 08-08-2007, 07:50 PM   #3
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The Rebbe, in his letters, often addressed people as 'chassid.'

As Noachide said, there are different levels. (Just like 'tzadik' can have different meanings. Also 'Eishes Chayil' can mean a wife, or it can mean the Torah. And so on.)
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Unread 08-08-2007, 08:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
but that doesn't contest the fact that the Rebbe said that the only chassid he had was the Rebbetzin...[/i]
What is the source for this "fact"?
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Unread 08-08-2007, 10:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
Question: What happened to the 'Reb' in front of such a chassid's name?

True that 'haTorah lo nitnah l'malachei hashareit', but that doesn't contest the fact that the Rebbe said that the only chassid he had was the Rebbetzin....

(Does what I said bother you so much that you felt a need to start a thread on it?)
I think that the Rebbetzin said that the Rebbe was the only chossid that the the Fr Rebbe had
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Unread 08-08-2007, 10:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
(Although why would such a person be on CT?)
(?)
I am sorry, I am a chossid, and here in Ct To help the wannabes like you,lol
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Unread 08-09-2007, 01:49 AM   #7
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Majorthinker: Yes, it irks me that some people who are in fact Chasidim don't have the pride to identify as such proudly, with a sense of veniflinu.

I don't think we're arguing, I also agree that we're not true Reb (thanks for the correction) Itche der Masmid caliber Chasidim (nor do I think anyone is liable to mistakenly think that we are, sadly), but that doesn't mean we're not Chasidim on a basic level. Being a Rebbe is all or nothing, but being a Chosid is not. There are many levels. There is even ziburis shelonu, which is even better than idis shelohem. Zevel pirdoisov, ober shel Yitzchok. Vedal. IINM there's a pisgam Chasidim (source?) "vos mir zeinen, zeinen mir, ober Chasidim zeinen mir."
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Unread 08-09-2007, 04:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
What is the source for this "fact"?
I'll look it up, bli neder, but the first part of the quote is that the only chassid the F"R had was the Rebbe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
I am sorry, I am a chossid, and here in Ct To help the wannabes like you,lol
Aw, thanks for the display of AY....so touching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
Zevel pirdoisov, ober shel Yitzchok. ....IINM there's a pisgam Chasidim (source?) "vos mir zeinen, zeinen mir, ober Chasidim zeinen mir."
What is IINM? V'ani lo m'vinah Yiddish. And the first quote...can you write it in Hebrew letters, k'dai l'havin....? Thanks.
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Unread 08-09-2007, 05:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Majorthinker: Yes, it irks me that some people who are in fact Chasidim don't have the pride to identify as such proudly, with a sense of veniflinu.
I never understood this "proudly" business. I recall a "farbrengen" several years before GT where the fellow with hardly a beard, total lack of yiras shomayim etc etc was going on and on about being "proud" of "our" Rebbe.
To be honest, it struck me a bit ... strange and not exactly חסידיש to say the least. More like colorwar teams...
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Unread 08-09-2007, 06:28 PM   #10
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The Rebbe is everyone's Rebbe....
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Unread 08-09-2007, 06:47 PM   #11
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Point being?
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Unread 08-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #12
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Okay, T613, you asked for it.....I will now proceed to take your post apart, line by line, and explain what I said before, plus some. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I never understood this "proudly" business.
B'seder....the idea of being proud of who you are, knowing who you are, and that you can accomplish something, gives you the strength and impetus to stand up for what's right and get something done. One who has no self-esteem is afraid of his own shadow and too scared to do anything. You need to know who you are and be proud of it. Ashreinu mah tov chelkeinu.

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I recall a "farbrengen" several years before GT where the fellow with hardly a beard, total lack of yiras shomayim etc etc
How do you know he had a total lack of yiras Shamayim? I could say the same about you, especially since you just had the chutzpah to say such a thing about another Yid. And you know what the Baal Shem Tov says about 'when you see a fault in another'.

Quote:
was going on and on about being "proud" of "our" Rebbe.
Maybe he was trying the 'he'emanti ki adaber' method....and the Rebbe is EVERYONE's Rebbe. Unless you have decided to cut yourself off from the rest of us b/c you don't want to be with 'the likes of him'....and even then, the Rebbe is everyone's Rebbe, including yours.

Quote:
To be honest, it struck me a bit ... strange and not exactly חסידיש to say the least. More like colorwar teams...
Thank you for being honest. Many aren't. Yes, it may seem strange, but guess what? Stranger things have happened. And not chassidish? Give me a break. The fact that I need to point this out shows a lack of 'chassidish'. He is chassidish in his own way, and maybe he needs a little help to act it a bit more. Instead of criticizing him, why not help him?
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Unread 08-09-2007, 08:59 PM   #13
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You really expect me to answer the above? Line by line? Did you ask for it?
A few comments will suffice: Some people are shkotzim (though they may have maalos, of course). Period. You want to say the same about me, based on your chochmos? Fine, go right ahead. Though what you gain, by getting personal, is beyond me. To each their own. And to anticipate your response - discussing an incident without a place, name and time period when it happened is not "personal". Keposhut, the issue here is not this or that individual. The issue is a point I am trying to give over. Either you get it or you don't. I suspect someday you will.
My point was, that his being "proud" had as much meaning as someone being "proud" of a (להבדיל) fancy car or nice pet, and the way he said it made it sound the same. Same for the way is often bandied about. Totally meaningless.
As to being chassidish in his own way - that is exactly the problem today. Everyone is chassidish, just depends on how one defines "chassidish"...
Ashreinu does not mean "proud" (at least not in the sense I think the word "proud" is being used here).
As to strange - I see a leshitoso.
Of course, it is possible I am misunderstanding the word "proud" in the context used here (which is "I am proud of my/our Rebbe who is the biggest, best, holiest" etc. Sort of like colorwar...). You spirited attack leads me to think I didn't.
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Unread 08-09-2007, 11:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
What is IINM? V'ani lo m'vinah Yiddish. And the first quote...can you write it in Hebrew letters, k'dai l'havin....? Thanks.
  • If I'm Not Mistaken
  • "Our low quality is better than their top quality." A saying of the Frierdike Rebbe.
  • "What we are, we are, but we are Chasidim." It sounds much better in the original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
I never understood this "proudly" business. I recall a "farbrengen" several years before GT where the fellow with hardly a beard, total lack of yiras shomayim etc etc was going on and on about being "proud" of "our" Rebbe.
To be honest, it struck me a bit ... strange and not exactly חסידיש to say the least. More like colorwar teams...
Obviously, my post was not addressing such people; lo beishufteni askinon, as mentioned in the 1st post. I was talking about the klal of Chasidim, who are sincere people who keep a lot of what's demanded but still have significant room to improve. That despite their room to improve, they should be proud of what they have a shaychus to, al derech vayigba libo bedarkei Havaye.

But even being ziburis shelonu is already a certain significant shaychus, as evidenced by the saying above.
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Unread 08-09-2007, 11:54 PM   #15
Torah613
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That saying also has a context. It is also be much abused and misunderstood, כנראה בחוש. Which is why I don't like that thrown around. [Interesting to note, that other groups have the same or similar verter...].
And being that Major disagreed with me so sharply, it is obviously not so obvious...

Last edited by Torah613; 08-10-2007 at 10:32 AM.
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Unread 08-10-2007, 12:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
You really expect me to answer the above? Line by line? Did you ask for it?
No, you do not have to respond line by line, nor did I ask or expect you to.

Quote:
A few comments will suffice:
Thank you.

Quote:
Some people are shkotzim (though they may have maalos, of course). Period. You want to say the same about me, based on your chochmos? Fine, go right ahead. Though what you gain, by getting personal, is beyond me.
I am not saying that you are like that. I am saying that you are not one to put that label on others. And that if you feel a need to, it might reflect on you. I don't know you well enough to say anything except that you know how to argue civilly.

Quote:
To each their own.
Agreed.

Quote:
And to anticipate your response-
Please don't- you have no idea what it will be.

Quote:
discussing an incident without a place, name and time period when it happened is not "personal".
Correct. However, you were judging that specific person.
Quote:
Keposhut, the issue here is not this or that individual.
Correct.

Quote:
The issue is a point I am trying to give over.
Obviously.

Quote:
Either you get it or you don't. I suspect someday you will.
Maybe I already get it and disagree?

Quote:
My point was, that his being "proud" had as much meaning as someone being "proud" of a (להבדיל) fancy car or nice pet, and the way he said it made it sound the same. Same for the way is often bandied about. Totally meaningless.
Ok, thank you for reapeating it. But if that is the way he expresses his 'pride', that does not mean that 'pride' is the wrong word. Maybe he expresses it on a different level than you, but so what? Express the true definition of 'pride' instead.

Quote:
As tbeing chassidish in his own way - that is exactly the problem today. Everyone is chassidish, just depends on how one defines "chassidish"...
That is true. However, everyone b'pnimiyus is a chassid, and IIRC, I said that it is expressed at different levels.

Quote:
Ashreinu does not mean "proud" (at least not in the sense I think the word "proud" is being used here).
See above. I think Ashreinu is how you feel 'proud' in the truest sense of the word. If he does not see 'pride' that way, mah laasot?

Quote:
As to strange - I see a leshitoso.
Whatever.

Quote:
Of course, it is possible I am misunderstanding the word "proud" in the context used here (which is "I am proud of my/our Rebbe who is the biggest, best, holiest" etc. Sort of like colorwar...). You spirited attack leads me to think I didn't.
I think you did. The way we were discussing 'proud' was a more pnimiyus definition of the word.
And just FYI, I usually answer sharply when I disagree. Civilly, but sharply. How I 'spiritedly disagreed' has nothing to do with anything but personality.
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Unread 08-10-2007, 12:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
* If I'm Not Mistaken
* "Our low quality is better than their top quality." A saying of the Frierdike Rebbe.
* "What we are, we are, but we are Chasidim." It sounds much better in the original.
Thank you. The Hebrew quote is what I thought it was (wanted to double check), and now I chap the Yiddish. (Next project is Yiddish, then Arabic.)

Although it is better to be ziburis shelanu (wish I had a Hebrew keyboard), that definitely does not cut it.....but I don't really think we're arguing, Noah, so I'll stop.
T613, we still are....I disagree with your post.....
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Unread 08-10-2007, 10:26 AM   #18
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Which post was that? #15? Why?
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Unread 08-10-2007, 10:59 AM   #19
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A few points and short comments, as I abhor going in circles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
I am not saying that you are like that. I am saying that you are not one to put that label on others. And that if you feel a need to, it might reflect on you.
I don't feel a need to do anything. But some things are דברים גלויים לעין כל, ואין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות. Just like there are certain charachters who would get up to speak and you will automatically discount anything they say, and for good reason. But maybe you are on a madreigo most of us only dream about...
Quote:
I don't know you well enough to say anything except that you know how to argue civilly.
Though I suspect some here will disagree with you, I accept the compliment. And yes, it is something I strive for (usually).
Quote:

Ok, thank you for reapeating it. But if that is the way he expresses his 'pride', that does not mean that 'pride' is the wrong word. Maybe he expresses it on a different level than you, but so what?
So what? Nothing. Just that in my opinion such "pride" is nareshkeit, no different than the pride in things you own, which is silly and has nothing to do with Chasidus.
Quote:

That is true. However, everyone b'pnimiyus is a chassid,
Nu nu...whatever that is supposed to mean...
Quote:
See above. I think Ashreinu is how you feel 'proud' in the truest sense of the word. If he does not see 'pride' that way, mah laasot?
Exactly. What is it worth, besides points for כביכול being on the "winning" team (in his eyes)?
Quote:

I think you did. The way we were discussing 'proud' was a more pnimiyus definition of the word.
Exactly. Meaning, that having "pride" - if that is the right word, is not a warm fuzzy feeling of "belonging", and being on the "winning team", and being "proud" of the Rebbe's greatness etc., rather it is a feeling of obligation and something that is - at least should be - מחייב. Otherwise it is empty words. Which is what I was bringing out with my example.
A few more points, if I may: If we say "אונזערע זיבורית", there is a condition attached - "אונזערע". That is also a madreigo and a demand. Often this pisgom is used as a cop out and בדקות (or maybe not so בדקות) a type of הכשר, which is what I meant before.
Same with the posuk ויגבה לבו בדרכי השם.
I think my pint is clear. Agree or disagreee to your heart's content.
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Unread 08-10-2007, 04:01 PM   #20
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T613- #9 and 13.

Your pint is clear or your point is clear? LOL.

Now, onto the post itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
A few points and short comments, as I abhor going in circles.
Me, too.

Quote:
I don't feel a need to do anything. But some things are דברים גלויים לעין כל, ואין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות. Just like there are certain charachters who would get up to speak and you will automatically discount anything they say, and for good reason. But maybe you are on a madreigo most of us only dream about...
Some things may be that way. But it doesn't seem right for you to pass judgement of him on a forum like this. OTOH, most of us do it in conversations anyways. So I guess my pisgam comes back to me....but does not exonerate you. And no, I don't think I am on a madreiga you would dream of being on (maybe nightmare?).

Quote:
Though I suspect some here will disagree with you, I accept the compliment. And yes, it is something I strive for (usually).
LOL, so what if they disagree? Those that do, probably don't argue nicely themselves, anyways.

Quote:
So what? Nothing. Just that in my opinion such "pride" is nareshkeit, no different than the pride in things you own, which is silly and has nothing to do with Chasidus.
Perhaps, but 'pride' itself is necessary.

Quote:
Nu nu...whatever that is supposed to mean...
Reread it. That is what it is supposed to mean.
Although that is more a way of looking at others than at yourself. And I did say that sometimes it isn't fully expressed in the person's actions.

Quote:
Exactly. What is it worth, besides points for כביכול being on the "winning" team (in his eyes)?
Even if that is all its worth now for him, perhaps that will change with time. And if it keeps him doing what he needs to, it is worth a lot. Worry about your pnimiyus, not his.

Quote:
Exactly. Meaning, that having "pride" - if that is the right word, is not a warm fuzzy feeling of "belonging", and being on the "winning team", and being "proud" of the Rebbe's greatness etc., rather it is a feeling of obligation and something that is - at least should be - מחייב. Otherwise it is empty words. Which is what I was bringing out with my example.
The first sentence is correct. The second one is not. Someone who feels that way will still do something, and if his 'pride' causes the action, it is not empty words.

Quote:
A few more points, if I may: If we say "אונזערע זיבורית", there is a condition attached - "אונזערע". That is also a madreigo and a demand. Often this pisgom is used as a cop out and בדקות (or maybe not so בדקות) a type of הכשר, which is what I meant before.
Same with the posuk ויגבה לבו בדרכי השם.
I think my pint is clear. Agree or disagreee to your heart's content.
Thank you for printing it in Hebrew. And I will say the unspeakable (chas ve'shalom)- to this part, I agree.... but בדרכי השם, dayka, and not in any other way....if people saw it like this, would not happen.
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Unread 08-10-2007, 05:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
T613- #9 and 13.

Your pint is clear or your point is clear? LOL.
Pint, of course.

Quote:
Thank you for printing it in Hebrew. And I will say the unspeakable (chas ve'shalom)- to this part, I agree.... but בדרכי השם, dayka, and not in any other way....if people saw it like this, would not happen.
I don't understand your "but". What are you trying to exclude? That is exactly what I meant.
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Unread 08-10-2007, 05:59 PM   #22
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Fine. So beneath it all, we agree (shehechiyanu).
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Unread 08-19-2007, 08:50 AM   #23
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Whatever. I just said a simple thing: I pointed out that we need to feel proud as chasidim at the same time as we improve further. Those "on the fringes" are really a separate issue, not directly relevant to the thread topic; as I said twice: lo beshufteni askinon.
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Unread 02-22-2009, 03:13 PM   #24
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[rediscovered during a different search...]

If the inyan is to feel pride in being chassidim, and this is what we farbreng about, then this is what leaks down to the lowest- and is probably the only thing they'll implement, since it fits right in.

So.
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