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Unread 03-09-2011, 04:08 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Some questions on Chochmoh and Kesser

When it says in Tanya perek beis, and so on, that Chochmoh of Atzilus and Asiyah hagashmi are equal compared to Ein Sof Boruch hu, does that mean when compared to Kesser of Atzilus? And if so, is that only when compared with chitzoniyus haKesser, or also when compared with pnimiyus haKesser? And if not, then why talk about Chochmoh being be'ain aroch legabei the level higher than it--talk about, let's say, chitzoniyus haKesser as being be'ain aroch legabei the level higher than it. Also, if it does refer to the richuk ha'erech between Chochmoh and chitzoniyus haKesser, how does that fit with what's written elsewhere that chitzoniyus haKesser, Arich, is the shoresh hane'etzolim and thus is be'erech to Atzilus?

Also, along similar lines, it says vehachocmoh mei'ayin timotzei, and Chassidus teitches that Chochmoh comes in a way of yesh mei'ayin from Kesser. Is this gap of yesh mei'ayin only when compared with pnimiyus haKesser, or also when compared with chitzoniyus haKesser?
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Unread 03-10-2011, 03:24 AM   #2
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Pnimiut Abba is pnimiut Atik (" " ").
pnimiut Abba is the koach haetzem and pnimiut Atik is or haetzem. Neither are the Maor itself.
The relationship between pnimiut and chitzoniut Keter is as a neshamah to a guf - hitlabshut.
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Unread 03-10-2011, 12:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
When it says in Tanya perek beis, and so on, that Chochmoh of Atzilus and Asiyah hagashmi are equal compared to Ein Sof Boruch hu, does that mean when compared to Kesser of Atzilus?
I've found that the Alter Rebbe rarely distinguishes between E''S and Kesser of Atzi'. Regardless, it is certainly true that for the purpose of the Ratzon (whether that is the etzem Ratzon of the Nefesh Elokis - the man behind the curtain, so to speak, or the ratzon to accomplish something trivial like build a treehouse), the machshavah of Atzilus of that Ratzon is equivalent to the Machshavah of Asiyah of that Ratzon. So, the answer to this question, la''d, is: yes.
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And if so, is that only when compared with chitzoniyus haKesser, or also when compared with pnimiyus haKesser?
I think you have this question reversed. If it is b'hashva'ah with respect to Chitzonius of Kesser, it is also b'ashva'a'h to Pnimius. If that was your question, then the answer is - once again - yes. In practical terms, the difference between Chitzonius of Kesser and Pnimius of Kesser is that Chitzonius is the Ratzon as that Ratzon's fulfillment is limited to the context of the world. Pnimius is the Ratzon (called Taanug) as the Ratzon is not limited to the context of the world.

That's one of the reasons that pnimius Atik is unknowable (ie, it doesn't even reveal itself in Binah, like Arich): we can only know what we have experience with. We have no experience with mutli-dimensional universes (for example) and therefore cannot conceive of them. The desires that we are aware of (ie, when Kesser is revealed in Binah) are confined to the contexts of our lives, and our universe. (That's why some folks, particularly highly imaginative children, are always captivated by the opening lines to Star Trek: "Space! The Final Frontier!" Within the context of our universe - as we know it - Space is definitely the final frontier, even though we know from Chassidus that the whole universe is like nothing, etc.)

But even the Ratzon of Arich Anpin is incomparably "higher" than Chochmah.
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And if not, then why talk about Chochmoh being be'ain aroch legabei the level higher than it--talk about, let's say, chitzoniyus haKesser as being be'ain aroch legabei the level higher than it. Also, if it does refer to the richuk ha'erech between Chochmoh and chitzoniyus haKesser, how does that fit with what's written elsewhere that chitzoniyus haKesser, Arich, is the shoresh hane'etzolim and thus is be'erech to Atzilus?
That's an excellent question. The way any ratzon is fulfilled is that it has to be planned out and acted upon. That ratzon therefore is the source for all that comes from it. Its easier to see this in effect in more approachable mashalim.

If I have a ratzon for a treehouse, the steps that are taken are as follows:

1. I have to figure out what I want. Chochmah is the initial impression of a Ratzon. So if you're at the zoo, and something about the experience is immensely satisfying, you might begin to wonder (Binah) how to recreate the same satisfying feeling in a more palpable venue - like your own backyard.

2. At some point, you will decide that the way to accomplish that is the build a treehouse. Note that the treehouse does not technically stem from Arich Anpin - its just that the treehouse will fulfill a ratzon in a way that only a treehouse could. Accept no imitations.

3. Then you need to go through the planning stages of a treehouse.

4-999. Ok, now I'm skipping the middos part of this example, because its irrelevant. Maybe I'll come back and write this out better at a later time.

1000. Then you build the treehouse.

In this example, though Arich is the shoresh of the impetus (Chochmah) to build a treehouse, a.) the actual idea to build it is only revealed in Binah, and (more to the point of your question), b.) it still has some relationship to the Chochmah, but is nonetheless b'ein aroch inasmuch as until you have the finished product, the ratzon remains unfulfilled.

This element of human psychology is responsible for all of the hopeless romantics in the world who watch the sun set from the edge of docks, as their feet dangle over the water: There is an ever present need (to express one's unknowable inner-self - their pnimius atik) in that moment that is momentarily assuaged by the immensely satisfying scenery (but is never completely fulfilled), and that will later provide the impetus and inspiration to write something. But, at the same time, since 'bl'um pichah m'l'daber, v'libchah m'l'harher', whatever the poet writes (and it may do a great job of expressing a feeling, but cannot possibly express the pnimius atik of a person) will only leave him hoping to have the same experience (sunset) again, and to be given another opportunity to convey his feelings through the poor medium of language - since nothing that can be conveyed, either through sechel/binah (libchah, in Sefer Yetzirah) or language/malchus (pichah, in sefer Yetzirah) is really the etzem of a person.*

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Also, along similar lines, it says vehachocmoh mei'ayin timotzei, and Chassidus teitches that Chochmoh comes in a way of yesh mei'ayin from Kesser. Is this gap of yesh mei'ayin only when compared with pnimiyus haKesser, or also when compared with chitzoniyus haKesser?
I answered this above.



*I almost didn't write this. And after I wrote it, I wanted to erase it. But it is true - regardless of how cheesy it is. And it isn't talking about me. Where I grew up, the sun set over land, not water.
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Unread 03-10-2011, 12:40 PM   #4
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Actually, I think that this thing I posted a little while ago is helpful:
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Unread 03-13-2011, 09:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
I think you have this question reversed.
You're right.
Thanks for your lengthy response. Do you have any references for your explanations? Thanks in advance.
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Unread 03-14-2011, 12:14 AM   #6
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Its mostly based upon Sharei HaYichud of the Mittler Rebbe.
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Unread 03-14-2011, 12:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
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Its mostly based upon Sharei HaYichud of the Mittler Rebbe.
Among other things, Sharei HaYichud teaches the importance of, and how to construct, an illustrative mashal.
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Unread 03-14-2011, 07:49 AM   #8
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Thanks. To be precise, I think you're referring to the sefer Shaar HaYichud.
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Unread 03-14-2011, 09:11 AM   #9
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Yeah. You're right.
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Unread 05-24-2011, 07:14 PM   #10
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Talks about this in Shaarei Orah at length.

Also Ayin Beis, but that's a little too long for a reference.
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Unread 12-25-2012, 10:58 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by danzinger View Post
Pnimiut Abba is pnimiut Atik (" " ").
It's interesting that " is brought as the source - like in various places in chasssidus. In " it actually implies ... There's a really long ho'oro from the Rebbe reconciling this in " ' 49.
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