Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Lubavitch > Chassidus

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Unread 10-17-2006, 11:51 AM   #1
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Yerida L'tzoirech Aliya...

Threads merged - Smirnoff.

I've also been searching for a source for the concept that yeridah tzorech aliyah, and strangely, I can't find it. Can anyone help me?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #2
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Off the top of my head, I would say it is a svoro, as implied in Tanya Perek 36. But what do I know? Gevurah and the King will probably source it in Kabala and Maharal...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-18-2006, 12:34 AM   #3
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
If you're referencing it in Tanya, perek 36 is a very weak source, though it's somewhat implied there in connection with the yerida to create low olamos. You'd want to better refer to perek 31, where it says clearly that yeridah tzorech aliyah. My question is what is the source for the concept that EVERY yerida is tzorech aliyah, not just yeridas haneshomo lemato.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-19-2006, 12:15 PM   #4
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
In Hisvaaduyos 5747, v. 2, p. 407, the Rebbe says: "This enabled him [the Frierdiker Rebbe] to spend the last ten years of his life disseminating Judaism, and striving to civilize the gentile world as well, as is known and famous, and has been printed." What is the Rebbe referring to, and where has it been printed?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2006, 11:45 AM   #5
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
maharal...stop making jokes...

its certainly all over the Big "Polishers"...Degel machane Ephraim, pri Aretz (MM of Vitebsk), Chernobler, Koznitzer, ....etc etc... exact

Go see the marei mekomos books to Tanya....the answer should be there...

as for kabbalah... I saw something related to in the Ramak but need to look more closely...

its erev Shabbas....


8th??
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-20-2006, 12:05 PM   #6
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
NL... dangerous....there is clearly an earlier source as someone (booo hiss) thought every yeridah was for an aliyah and thus cuased havoc back in 1666.

even Breslov

for comparative nigle humor see Sefer haChinuch mitzvah 410.

actually seriously... Makkos 7b

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=145212
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-21-2006, 07:45 AM   #7
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
The 1st two references have nothing to do with the principle of a yerida and aliyah ruchnis. The last one does, but it doesn't state there [Ben Porat Yossef, Vayechi, p. 85a (and see there also p. 85b), and Me’or Einayim, Va’etchanan, p. 62b-c.]--these sforim are not tachas yodi, so if anyone else can check the reference, I'd appreciate it] that this is a general principle. It only says it in connection with ha'alo'as machshovos zoros bifrat.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2006, 12:28 AM   #8
RebLazer
Gold Member
 
RebLazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I've also been searching for a source for the concept that yeridah tzorech aliyah, and strangely, I can't find it. Can anyone help me?
Tzavaas HaRivash
סד. פעמים שנופל אדם ממדרגה מחמת עצמו שהשי"ת יודע שהוא צריך לכך ופעמים העולם גורמים שיפול אדם ממדריגתו והירידה היא לצורך עליה כדי לבוא למדרגה גדולה כמ"ש הוא ינהגנו על מות וכתיב וירד אברם מצרימה ויעל אברם ממצרים אברם היא הנשמה ומצרים הם הקליפות
:

Igrah De'Kala 107a

דלפעמים יארע לצדיק גדול ההולך בדביקות ותשוקה הנכבדת לבורא עולם, יארע לו לפעמים שיפול ממדריגתו, וקבלנו מהצדיקים שלא יתעצב בזה כי ירידה זו לצורך עליה, כי באם היה עולה במדריגה אחר מדריגה בלי הפסק היה מתבטל ממציאותו, על כן מסתלקין מעליו המוחין דגדלות, ועל ידי זה מתחזקים הכלים בעוסקו במצות מעשיות בעשיה ממש, ויכול לסבול אחר כך אור חדש הנמשך עליו על ידי התעוררת
:

Tzikas HaTzadik par. 67
בכל מדרגה שהוא עולה יש לו לחזור ולשוב על חטאיו וזהו ענין חטאתי נגדי תמיד אף על פי שהאמין שכבר נתקבלה תשובתו מכל מקום לפי שהוא לא הי' עומד ובכל יום הי' עולה ממדריגה למדריגה. ונודע דברי האריז"ל כי בג"ע כל עת שמעלין למדרגה יותר גדולה מוסיפין לדקדק עליו בחטאיו ולהענישו על כל חטא קטן וכ"ה בעוה"ז. וזהו טעם ירידה לצורך עליה המבואר בספרים שעת שמדקדקים בו הוא עת הירידה ואז צריך תשובה. ועגמת נפש שיש לו מחטאיו הוא העונש כמש"ל אות נ"ז ועי"ז יזכה לעליה:
RebLazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-22-2006, 11:56 PM   #9
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
thanks, but number is that exactly in Tzavo'as HoRivosh?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-23-2006, 11:06 AM   #10
RebLazer
Gold Member
 
RebLazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
thanks, but number is that exactly in Tzavo'as HoRivosh?
Hanagos Yesharos, par. 64.
RebLazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-23-2006, 12:21 PM   #11
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
so is taka a Chiddush of the BST?
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-23-2006, 01:32 PM   #12
The Eighth King
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
the King will probably source it in Kabala and Maharal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
8th??
[As I understand it] Much older discussion and question than besht although terms might be new (and there are updated answers etc)... Will G-d willing provide page numbers when I return from my travels...
The Eighth King is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-26-2012, 05:06 PM   #13
Kookoo Kabalist
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 425
Yerida L'tzoirech Aliya...

Where did the "yerida l'tzoirech aliya" idea originate?
Kookoo Kabalist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-26-2012, 07:16 PM   #14
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
See
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...eRef115a145212

See nigle Sefer Hachinuch 410

I challenge someone to find the term itself before Chassidus.
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-26-2012, 07:46 PM   #15
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Oh, please. For that you could have brought Makos 8b.... He obviously means the concept in chassidus.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-26-2012, 09:45 PM   #16
Kookoo Kabalist
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
I challenge someone to find the term itself before Chassidus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
He obviously means the concept in chassidus.
Yeah, that's what I was asking...
Kookoo Kabalist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-03-2012, 03:45 PM   #17
Rabbi_M
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
In footnotes, this is usually sourced to Ohr Hatorah from the Tzemach Tzedek. Though an earlier source would be where this is actually written in Likutei Torah. AFAIK, that's as far back as this idea goes.
Rabbi_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 01:10 AM   #18
Rabbi_M
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
I stand corrected. http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=2813

See post #17 and onward.
Rabbi_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 10:11 AM   #19
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
How do you stand?

Torah I did bring Makkos 6 years ago
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 10:25 AM   #20
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
Some might say the concept was preceded by Aveira Lishmah
but Chillin disagrees here
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=2745
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 10:53 AM   #21
Rabbi_M
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
How do you stand?
Are you taking issue with something? If you are, I'm not sure with what.
Rabbi_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 11:30 AM   #22
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
I already in the first reply linked the concept to the BST who preceded the TT.
If you had searched CT b4, u would c other chassidus already quoted as well.
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #23
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah View Post
How do you stand?

Torah I did bring Makkos 6 years ago
Yes, I see that now...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 01:51 PM   #24
Rabbi_M
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
What caught my eye when learning, is that the classic source for the concept as brought in marei m'koimos all throughout is: "Ohr Hatorah [D'vorim vol 2.] Eikev pg 481 and the citations brought there". With sources found in early Chassidus, why did all the editors seem to struggle over finding an actual "source" for this idea? As klal though, the T"T that I mentioned, has always become the "source" as penned down in seforim.

I thought that was pretty odd when I found the A"R to talk about this in Likutei Torah (as I mentioned in my first post). But now that the source shows to be in the BST's toiros as well, that only makes things even more odd...
Rabbi_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 02:32 PM   #25
Rabbi_M
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
From what I've seen, the T"T I mentioned is used in the following places:

The new print of Samech Vov in footnote 52 on pg 319; the R"M in lamed ches - pg 34 footnote 74; pg 165 footnote 1133; pg 477 footnote 21; the R"M in reish mem (vol 1) - pg 12 footnote 59; pg 96 footnote 33; pg 323 footnote 40; pg 426 footnote 71; pg 446 footnote 9; the R"M in reish mem (vol 2) - pg 23 footnote 322; pg 610 footnote 44; pg 728 footnote 112; pg 739 footnote 6.

These are just a few places I jotted down just in order to establish my point. But there are really many tens and tens of places that I didn't even mention - because it would just be too long to write out. So far, from what I've seen, they all bring this standalone citation...

In that maamor the T"T brings about 10 different maamorim in his citations on this idea, the earliest dating back to the A"R. It's interesting that the vort from the BST didn't get any mention in reference to this topic as addressed in sifrei Chassidus througought (as I've seen so far), neither from the T"T (or other Rebbeim in that case), or from the editors.
Rabbi_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Minhogim For Getting An Aliya hubdirenbud Lubavitch Minhagim 10 03-26-2007 06:53 PM
The Rebbe's Aliya Chabad Friend Stories about the Rabbeim and Chassidim 3 03-13-2007 02:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com