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Unread 01-01-2008, 09:01 AM   #26
Torah613
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The issue is not so much the "achdus", the issue IMHO is the resolve to cleanup 770. I do not believe it is there at all, which is why it will not change [and even if it were there, I don't think there is much that can be done...].
This whole case came about because of a standoff about the stone. If not for that specific issue, there would never have been a case over who "owns" the place. The circus inside 770 was not what drove this issue. Therefore - why will that ever change?
Therefore, pisgomim of "tut vos ir kent" directed at us - are meaningless.
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Unread 01-02-2008, 12:09 AM   #27
chossidnistar
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Aguch and Merkos, as legal owners of 770, are going to be responsible of Everything that is done in 770.ve gashmius and ruchnius
This will be the image of Lubavich towards the world
THey have the responsability to inforce the ruchnius rules
If there is achdus in Aguch and Merkos, they are going to be succesfull
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Unread 01-02-2008, 08:44 AM   #28
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Ruchnius rules? Like what? Who is going to enforce anything? The goings on will continue.
I think you are very naive...
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Unread 01-02-2008, 07:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Ruchnius rules? Like what? Who is going to enforce anything? The goings on will continue.
I think you are very naive...
Like not signs, not shvil, not dollars, taking care of official farbrengens, taking care of music, gaboym,etc
if the emmbers of Aguch and Merkos are not fit for their responsabilities, they have to resign
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Unread 01-02-2008, 09:05 PM   #30
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When any of those things are implemented, wake me up and let me know.
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Unread 01-02-2008, 09:12 PM   #31
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We need Moshiach!
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Unread 01-02-2008, 10:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyaway View Post
We need Moshiach!

Yes indeed, the world needs Mashiach. I wonder though, does Mashiach need Lubavitch in its present state? What did the Rebbe say was the purpose of Lubavitch? Has this miztvah of Lubavitch been fulfilled? Is it presently in fulfillment at 770?
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Unread 01-03-2008, 12:12 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
if the emmbers of Aguch and Merkos are not fit for their responsabilities, they have to resign
That was not the Rebbe's view on such issues.
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Unread 01-03-2008, 08:03 PM   #34
chossidnistar
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it 's just a way to push a little bit ot do something for 770
this is what they should think to move on
it is a shame the way it is sright now
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
That was not the Rebbe's view on such issues.
What was the Rebbe's view on it? (as politics-naive as i am)
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Unread 01-05-2008, 10:45 PM   #36
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You are not so naive as to know to relate to anything too complex as politics.

The Rebbe's view about people appointed by the FR was that he wasn't going to touch them or move them from their position, no matter what was said about them that was true.
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Unread 01-06-2008, 02:48 PM   #37
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Change might come to 770 (G-D willing)

Debra Nussbaum Cohen/The Jewish Week

Lubavitch world headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway in Crown Heights. Those in charge of the main shul who tend to believe that the late Lubavitcher rebbe is the messiah could be removed in light of last weeks decision.
In the fight for control of 770 Eastern Parkway the headquarters and heart of the Lubavitch movement, which has been the site of passionate and sometimes violent fights between messianists and non-messianists a court decision last week has come down clearly on the side of the non-messianists.
The strongly worded decision from Justice Ira Harkavy of New York State Supreme Court on Dec. 27 says that the only parties with the right to determine what happens at 770 are its owners, two of the movements central organizations, Agudas Chasedei Chabad and Merkos LInyonei Chinuch (Association of Chabad Chasidim and the Lubavitch Educational Organization).
The decision marks a victory for those in the movement who have been trying to marginalize the messianists who believe in proclaiming the last, late Lubavitch rebbe as the messiah since the faction began asserting itself when the rebbe was debilitated by a stroke in 1992, two years before he died.
A spokesman for Agudas and Merkos, Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, said, Were very gratified by the courts decision. Were pained by the events that led us here and still harbor hopes that those responsible will recognize the error of their ways.
The judge ruled that the two organizations have the right to eject their opponents, an organization named Congregation Lubavitch Inc., which was incorporated two years after the rebbe died and whose trustees were elected by the Crown Heights Lubavitch community to run synagogue operations. Those four trustees, known as gabboyim, lost the case but have 60 days to appeal as long as they put up $500,000 bond and pay the synagogue operating expenses.
One of the gabboyim said to be most involved in the lawsuit, Rabbi Zalman Lipskier, did not return a message left at his home.
An attorney representing Congregation Lubavitch Inc., Edward Rudofsky, said, Needless to say were disappointed, and as we discussed with the judge we intend to appeal and expect to satisfy the conditions.
Rudofsky said that the judge, who retired from the bench this week, framed the case incorrectly.
This is not an ejectment action, this is an argument over control over religious congregation and it did not belong in secular court. This is not a situation where someone is a trespasser or squatter, and we dont believe Merkos can simply decide whos going to be in charge of a religious congregation, which is apparently what their intention is, he said.
The messianist fervor currently dominates the atmosphere at 770, with a large banner proclaiming Yechi ... Melech HaMoshiach LeOlam VaEd, calling the rebbe the King Messiah Forever and Ever, with the slogan also embroidered on the curtain covering the Torah scroll ark, and chanted during many prayer services.
With the court victory, 770s owners could now remove the banner and discourage the singing of Yechi. The decision also says the owners could also arrest gabboyim for trespassing but Rabbi Shmotkin declined to say anything specific about their plans.
There has been periodic physical and frequent verbal violence between the messianists and those who they feel are detracting from the rebbes image as the King Messiah by disagreeing.
Some predict violence if the messianist faction is ejected.
Rudofsky said, I certainly hope there wont be any violence and also hope Agudas and Merkos will respect the fervor and beliefs of the people who worship there.
If people are provoked, I guess you can provoke anybody to the point where they dont do what they should do and would do under normal circumstances, said Rudofsky. If theyre provoked enough I dont want to speculate what will happen. I dont want to sound like Im condoning it, because Im not.
One Chabad emissary says that in recent months the bellicosity has waned, however.
In November 2006, just after the annual banquet of over 3,000 emissaries, Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie wrote an article posted on Lubavitch Web sites.
A contingent of the emissaries went to 770 for fellowship and words of Torah. But their farbrengen was disrupted by angry young men, a group that has made violence and terror their symbol, and who threw benches, prayerbooks and fists at the gathered emissaries, wrote Rabbi Eliezrie in his article, The Tragedy in 770. One shaliach had his leg broken, he wrote.
The young men at issue are collectively known as the Tzfatim, because most studied in a Lubavitch yeshiva in the northern Israeli city Safed, or Tzfat in Hebrew. Too young to have known the rebbe when he was well, the young men come to the yeshiva at 770 to study.
Are any of us proud of 770 today? Or do we cringe with distaste when we walk in and see how craziness has become dominant, wrote Rabbi Eliezrie, a veteran shaliach, in Yorba Linda, Calif.
Ofer Braunstein, a Lubavitch resident of Crown Heights, said, Its mostly bochurim [unmarried young men] from Safed, but its also old hasidim who are violent, he said. They fight mamish [truly] physically. I saw it many times, he told The Jewish Week in an interview outside 770 on Sunday night.
The lawsuit that brought the conflict to a head started three years ago, when at 4 a.m. on Nov. 3, 2004, several young men wrenched off from the synagogues exterior wall a plaque next to the cornerstone placed by the Lubavitcher rebbe, which referred to him with a Hebrew honorific used after the name of someone deceased.
They tried to replace it with their own plaque with an Aramaic term used after the name of a living sage.
Several people tried to stop them, blows were thrown, the police called and Rabbi Yehuda Krinsky, chairman of Merkos, got a restraining order against them. The following month, Agudas and Merkos filed the civil court case against three named young men and 30 John Does. Congregation Lubavitch Inc. soon joined the lawsuit as defendants.
Last year Justice Harkavy deemed Agudas and Merkos the rightful owners of the property, and this latest legal chapter was their effort to win the right to eject Congregation Lubavitch Inc.
The Lubavitch headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway is open around the clock and inside the cavernous space with worn linoleum floors and rundown benches, hundreds of men gather for minyans that take place at all hours. At any given time some men are praying, while others schmooze, study a page of holy text, or chat on cell phones.
The womens section, a balcony upstairs hidden from male view by darkened windows, is likewise open to anyone who cares to enter. While on Sunday evening women chatted and a few young children scampered around, the womens section does not have quite the same feeling of being a loud learning hall cum social club. A leaflet taped to the wall announces the times for Radio Moshiach and Redemption broadcasts, below a plastic rack with issues of Living With Moshiach.
The turmoil at 770 has affected the reputation of the Lubavitch movement, whose influence outweighs its numbers because of its network of deeply committed, far-flung emissaries.
People look to Lubavitch and are confused. People dont understand the internal dynamics of Lubavitch, whats going on inside. And 770 is a symbol within Lubavitch and beyond Lubavitch, said one shaliach, who asked not to be named.
Rabbi Eliezrie said, We allowed this to be strong for a while, but it will change now. The community is ready. A lot of people feel there has to be change there.
Others say that the anti-messianists will not be able to win the war over 770 even if they are victorious in court.
The shul will not change at all, said Avraham Hirsch, a Crown Heights resident leaving 770 after davening. I doubt they will be able to disregard the feelings of the people who come here.
The essence of the problem, said Rabbi Eliezrie, is larger than the fight over 770.
Today we have this dilemma who do we turn to for direction? he said. Its a community which is struggling with itself right now. There are real issues of how do we instill chasidishe values, how do we give our children an education when you dont have the rebbe there physically to serve as a role model?


http://www.shturem.net/index.php?sec...9&lang=english
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Unread 01-10-2008, 06:16 PM   #38
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Getting Ready to Exit 770!

Now When the clowns get kicked out off 770 they can all get in to the Clown car.



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Ki Bisimcha Tatzaua...

Last edited by AntiMishichist; 01-10-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Unread 01-11-2008, 01:25 AM   #39
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Hey Anti! Where's your Ahavas Yisroel? Why don't you go to Me'ah She'arim and throw rocks you hoodlum?! People who live and breath the bringing of Moshiach (fine so some of them are a bit hyper) and all you can do is criticize them! Do you keep Cholov Yisroel? Only eat Lubavitcher Shchita? Not touch Satmar products? Leave your beard alone? Not watch movies? If the answer is no to even one of these then you're a fool, a loser, and a bored soul who has nothing better to do than to mock the angels of G-d!
Apropo to this weeks parsha - Makas Choshech, when 4/5 of Jews perished - I say to you Mr. Anti - If you were there, you would NOT have been redeemed!
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Unread 01-11-2008, 01:38 AM   #40
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I will concur that although there is truth to AM's words, they demonstrate a distasteful and disturbing lack of ahavas Yisroel, something that is an obligation for all Jews, never mind one who calls himself a Lubavitcher, which, as the Rebbe pointed out, means "city of love," for the extra emphasis on ahavas Yisroel that is (or in many cases should ba"h) be typical of a Lubavitcher. Maybe AM will apologise?

I've started a thread on this topic here, with almost no mature response, which might unfortunately somewhat explain the fact that Moshiach didn't come today.
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Unread 01-11-2008, 01:42 AM   #41
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as Avraham Fried puts it (I take it he got it from an earlier source, but I don't know which)

Quote:

, ,
.
,
, .
, , -
.
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Unread 01-11-2008, 02:06 AM   #43
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Absolutely! AM is a disgrace!
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Unread 01-11-2008, 03:02 AM   #44
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Thanks for the source, Zaraza.
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Unread 01-11-2008, 01:53 PM   #45
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flyaway wrote:
Hey Anti! Where's your Ahavas Yisroel?
Reply: I would then think that you would go on to give a whole speech about how we are supposed to love every Jew no matter what etc...
NO, you go on to do the same thing you are accusing me of doing...

"Why don't you go to Me'ah She'arim and throw rocks you hoodlum?!"

"People who live and breathe the bringing of Moshiach (fine so some of them are a bit hyper) and all you can do is criticize them!"
Reply: How exactly have they brought moshiach any closer in the last 13 years? What have they done for moshiach that nobody else has done?
How many Jews have these people helpet Bigashmiyas and Biruchniyas?
Whos afreid of whom? Who have been beating and arrasing Crown heights for the last 13 years? Why do you think you have the copy right on Moshiach.
You almost sound like the animal rights people that were angry at Israel for blowing up a donkey that was rigged with explosives to kill Human beings. Its ok to kill people but animals NO!
When I davven in 770 I am not the Treat!

Do you keep Cholov Yisroel? Only eat Lubavitcher Shchita? Not touch Satmar products? Leave your beard alone? Not watch movies? If the answer is no to even one of these then you're a fool, a loser, and a bored soul who has nothing better to do than to mock the angels of G-d!

Reply: Did you just come back from Jihad camp?
Apropos to this weeks parsha - Makas Choshech, when 4/5 of Jews perished - I say to you Mr. Anti - If you were there, you would NOT have been redeemed!

Reply: Typical Mishichist Last week someone was having a disagreement with a mishichist (if I was not there myself I would not believe it my self), I quote the mishichist
HaRaabee yarog etcha- The Rhabbe will kill you
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Unread 01-11-2008, 06:21 PM   #46
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Well I hope you get some Ahavas Yisroel you behayma! That last story you said never happened and the only truth is that Moshiach is coming soon so lets be ready! And Ahavas Yisroel and learning matters of GEU"M
(which the Chossidim you labeled 'clowns' do day and night) is the way to go you shtik drek Anti Meshichist CH"V HYL"S!

P.S. Thanks for the complement! Becoming a Meshichist was always my passion.
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Unread 01-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #47
Torah613
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AM - the best policy with this fellow IMHO, is to just ignore him and his posts. And perhaps learn from him ( " ), how NOT to write posts, rather strive to keep your posts on a decent level with some level of intelligence (without name calling etc.).
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Unread 01-12-2008, 10:12 PM   #48
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we also have to have Ahavas Ysroel for al the many jews that ,b/c the actual conditions ,do not go in 770,a and of course they don;t bring newcomers
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Unread 01-12-2008, 10:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiMishichist View Post
You almost sound like the animal rights people that were angry at Israel for blowing up a donkey that was rigged with explosives to kill Human beings. Its ok to kill people but animals NO!
You are probably referring to the February 3, 2003 letter from PETA to Yassar Arafat asking him not to kill Jews with donkeys loaded with explosives. It is probably just a typo but I wanted to make clear that Israel has never, to my knowledge, used donkeys to kill Palestinian civilians.
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Unread 01-12-2008, 10:46 PM   #50
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Torah613 - what a brillitant and balanced way to describe flyaway's posts! I still think noahidelaws' position about Anti Meshichist's strong comments is the correct one and not supporting his lack of Ahavas Yisroel either.

P.S. I agree that 770 is quite tough to bring people into, but I also don't think that Krinsky will change that.
www.yudelkrinsky.com
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