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Unread 01-22-2004, 02:26 PM   #51
Jude
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true
still waiting to hear what you think the message is
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Unread 01-22-2004, 02:37 PM   #52
rebayzl
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Simple - The message is that this is not what the Main Work of Our Generation is about.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 02:57 PM   #53
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because the main work is??????

Basi L'Gani 5711 - to bring the Ikar Shechina down to earth with the coming of Moshiach

and what makes loving the Rebbe "work"?

anyway, along with love for the Rebbe, davening b'arichus and iskafia are also not the Main Work of Our Generation - why haven't you made similar comments about Main Work in the threads that discuss those topics? Something about loving the Rebbe irk you?
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:07 PM   #54
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it may not be the main work but it can probably contribute a lot to motivation for all the main work.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:14 PM   #55
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Quote:
Something about loving the Rebbe irk you?
When used to undo and fight Traditional Judaism, yes.

The rest I will leave for Leayis to respond.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:17 PM   #56
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sounds like you find the 'dead' aspect perturbing too
in other words, you don't think love for the Rebbe is relevant any longer, main work or not
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:22 PM   #57
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One thing is sure, those to whom a person who passed away is considered "alive", Embarasing the Rebbe may be considered "love" too, and a man-made New-Age Religion can be considered Judaism or Chasidut.

It's all about definitions, you see.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:29 PM   #58
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so if your rebbe is dead what makes you a chassid? If his past (and present?) position as your rebbe isn't enough to keep that love and to work on it's growth, what does he give you and what do you give him and why would either of you care? My sincerest apologies to you (in the plural) and my rebbe for speaking in such a non-derech eretz way I'm just trying to understand your perspective.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:29 PM   #59
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Rebayzl: changing topics to go on a meshichist-bashing rampage?

since you don't see it as the Main Work, does that mean you didn't love the Rebbe before 3 Tamuz?
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:43 PM   #60
RebMoshe
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamachassid
so if your rebbe is dead what makes you a chassid?
You take another Rebbe, that makes you a chasid.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 03:57 PM   #61
rebayzl
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamachassid
so if your rebbe is dead what makes you a chassid? If his past (and present?) position as your rebbe isn't enough to keep that love and to work on it's growth, what does he give you and what do you give him and why would either of you care? My sincerest apologies to you (in the plural) and my rebbe for speaking in such a non-derech eretz way I'm just trying to understand your perspective.
Learn Igeret Hakodesh Siman 27.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 04:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebMoshe


You take another Rebbe, that makes you a chasid.
I wonder who's chosid was Moshe Rabeinu or Avrohom Ovinu?
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Unread 01-22-2004, 04:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl

I wonder who's chosid was Moshe Rabeinu or Avrohom Ovinu?
THey weren't chasidim.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 04:33 PM   #64
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Yes, they were not zoche...
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:06 PM   #65
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamachassid
so if your rebbe is dead what makes you a chassid? If his past (and present?) position as your rebbe isn't enough to keep that love and to work on it's growth, what does he give you and what do you give him and why would either of you care? My sincerest apologies to you (in the plural) and my rebbe for speaking in such a non-derech eretz way I'm just trying to understand your perspective.
A chosid - in the most limited sense, as I am not in a position to address "love" the the Rebbe, as I am not on that level - means adhering to his teachings, following as much as possible in his footsteps, whether convenient or not.

Last edited by Torah613; 01-23-2004 at 12:16 AM.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:10 PM   #66
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level - you're saying that love for the Rebbe requires being on a certain level?

but I've read about people, even non-Lubavitchers, who love the Rebbe!

for example, Y.Y. Jacobson tells the following:

I must tell you what happened to a woman that I know. She comes from an American, non-observant family. She is very spiritual by nature, and in the sixties, she became a hippie. She wandered around the world and then came to Brooklyn and someone shlepped her into 770 to hear a talk the Rebbe gave to women and girls.

The way it worked was, after the sicha, the Rebbe would remain in his place and each woman who had a question was allowed to go up and ask the Rebbe. They urged this woman to approach the Rebbe and she said: You should know that Iím not here because I believe in you. I think this is a cult. I donít believe in you or in any miracle stories of yours. She said: The problem with people like you is that you donít educate people to think for themselves. You guide their every move.

The Rebbe began to laugh out loud. She told me that she thought the Rebbe would get angry and would tell people to throw her out, but he laughed as though he was really amused. Then the Rebbe said: Fine, but why did you come?

They dragged me here, she said.

Oh? Arenít you independent? You explained so nicely how a person needs to guide himself, yet they dragged you here?

She said: Youíre right, but they dragged me here.

The Rebbe said: Fine, Iím happy that you came.

She posed this question to the Rebbe: Iím studying psychology in university and my parents want me to continue with school but I want to go and learn pottery in the Far East. What do you think I should do?

The Rebbe thought for a moment and then said: I think that both ideas are wonderful and very interesting. The world needs both and I canít tell you that one is better than the other, but I have a third idea. Maybe you could devote some time to get to know yourself. As you said, a person needs to be independent. It would be worthwhile for you to devote time to truly getting to know what youíre about, not just superficially. And since youíre Jewish, maybe youíll go and learn what being a Jew is about. It should be with success.

She left 770 and she told me that at that moment she simply loved the Rebbe. He had won her over with his openness, his normality, and his logic. She stayed in Crown Heights for a few months and then Beis Chana in Minnesota was recommended. She went back to the Rebbe and this time she spoke respectfully and asked for the Rebbeís opinion.

The Rebbe smiled and said: You think Iíll give you an objective answer? You ask what I think? Of course, I think you should go there, but Iím not objective.

She went to Beis Chana and the rest is history.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:16 PM   #67
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Nu, at that point she was at that level. Maybe at this point of time I'm not. I did not comment nor express an opinion wether it is possible or not. Who am I to argue with a befeirushe story by YY Jacobson....
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:23 PM   #68
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there's really no need to argue ... why even mention that?

obviously the point is not who told the story but the fact that many people, on differing levels of observance, have experienced the feeling of love for the Rebbe. The story is just one illustration.

do you have a source for the idea that you need to be on a certain level in order to love the Rebbe?
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:32 PM   #69
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If this is what you call "Love", than, as we said, it's a matter of definition. NO argument possible.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:45 PM   #70
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i think there is love and there is love

what about people who claim to love G-d but don't observe Torah and mitzvot etc?

sounds like love, but if you love G-d wouldn't you carry out His commandments?

[posted before seeing rebayzl, who i think makes the same point]
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:52 PM   #71
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is there a source that says that observance of mitzvos must come before ahavas Hashem?

do you accept that parent-child love is innate? if yes, how do you explain that parents do things that are not in their children's best interests sometimes, and that children often do things that get their parents upset?
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Unread 01-22-2004, 07:53 PM   #72
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Thanks, Shoin. Those people don't know what "G-d" means, and what "Loving G-d" means. The same applies here.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 08:45 PM   #73
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about the main work of our time: i always heard by farbrengens that the main thing is to be mekasher nuch a eeden tzum reben, un noch beser iz az miken ufton az noch a eed zol hult hoben dem reben. thats the bottom line. ay rebmoshe is going to jump all over this statement, so bipashtus the answer to him is that the rebbe brings people closer to hashem. we have to bring yidden to the rebbe, the rest he will do.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 08:49 PM   #74
rebayzl
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Source, Please.
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Unread 01-22-2004, 09:38 PM   #75
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Translation: (according to Leayis, I don't mind sensitive corrections) The main thing is to connect another Yid to the Rebbe and it's even better if we can accomplish that a Yid should hult hoben (no English equivelant), treasure the Rebbe.
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