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Unread 01-11-2004, 05:44 PM   #1
Jude
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Love for the Rebbe

Somebody defined a chassid as one who LOVES THE REBBE MORE THAN HIMSELF (based on a Ha'Yom Yom).

what do you think about that?

what about somebody who has mesirus nefesh for the Rebbe's inyanim, who goes on shlichus, who studies the Rebbe's teachings, and tries to fulfill the Rebbe's horaos, but doesn't love the Rebbe more than himself, is he not a Chasid?!

or do you think that if a person does all this, by definition, he loves the Rebbe?

how would one know whether he does or doesn't love the Rebbe to that extent? and isn't ha'maaseh hu ha'ikar, so if he studies, fulfills etc. - doesn't THAT define him as a Chasid?

how do you engender the emotional experience of love for the Rebbe?

do you think young people today love the Rebbe?
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Unread 01-11-2004, 05:45 PM   #2
chassidus
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Let's see what the Freidiker Rebbe has to say about this in Likkutei Dibburim (chapter 3, section 2):

"There are four modes of connection between Rebbe and chassid. (a) Rav and Talmud (teacher and student), or, in other words, mashpia and mekabel.
(b) Hiskashrus and dveikus (lit., "being bound" and "cleaving"). This refers to the fusing of chassid and Rebbe, both becoming bound together in a complete unity through their Torah study and their avodah. This relates to the well-known answer that my saintly father gave to a certain individual who at yechidus said that he wanted to be bound (mekusher) to him: "All hiskashrus is through the study of Torah. Study the Chassidus that I exound, and you will become mekusher."
(c) Rebbe and chassid as av and ben (father and son).
(d) Rebbe and chassid as maor and or (luminary and light).

"Now even in the mode of luminary and light, which is the highest of the above levels, what is crucial is the state of being bound inwardly and with ones very being. We are not speaking only of the kind of bond in which the chassid constantly remembers the Rebbe and the Rebbe constantly remembers the chassid. We are speaking of a state of being utterly intertwined at all spiritual levels, in such a way that both the chassid and the Rebbe complement the true essence of each other like or and maor, light and luminary. The luminary reveals a light from its very being (or atzmi), and such light is a revelation of the luminary. Each is depentent on the other, just as with Rebbe and chassid. And this entire bond finds expression in a manner of inner love."

From this we see that the main connection of a Rebbe and Chassid is the inner bond of love between them. Even on the highest level of connection, where you would think the chassid does not have an independent idenity to need love, the Freidiker Rebbe declairs that here too love is the main thing.

Not withstanding the importance of love, I don't think that a person needs to have perfect love to be called a chassid. Rather I think that this is similar to avodas Hashem. The main goal of avodah is to cultivate a love for G-d. This is done through contemplating His greatness. However, this is a ladder with five main rungs, corresponding to the five levels of the soul. Sure the truest and highest level is the connection of Yechidah, and this is the ultimate goal, but a person cannot jump to this. It is simply not possible. A person must arrange his avodah with order and strive closer and closer to this goal.

So I would say that a chassid is a person who desires and strives for a relationship with the Rebbe. He constantly looks for ways to improve and deepen this relationship. To listen to the Rebbe's directives is a connection of fear, an external one. To work hard to push the Rebbe's message and goal, looking to do what the Rebbe wants even if he didn't ask, this points to a deeper connection, a connection of love.

Do you thirst for the Rebbe's words? Is every moment of a Rebbe video precious? Or do you yawn and look at your watch? (And the truth is writing this list makes me feel a bit ashamed. )

We should be infatuated with the Rebbe like (lehavdil) a fan infatuated with a star. We should covet anything to do with him. This is the goal in any relationship of love, whether it is teacher and student, parent and child, husband and wife, chassid and Rebbe, or man and G-d. And like any relationship, it is something we may need to work to build and maintain.

In the case of Rebbe and chassid, this relationship is built by reading and telling stories of the Rebbe. Remembering his face and times when you saw him. Instructions you received from him. The love and care the Rebbe has for every Jew. The love and care the Rebbe has for you. The sacrifices the Rebbe made and deep efforts the Rebbe invested in helping us: teaching us, speaking to us, writing to us, all on our level. Learning the Rebbe's Torah and through enjoying and appreciating it, appreciating the Rebbe for giving it to us.

Chassidim used to set aside special times for this sort of mediation (like davening is set aside for thinking about G-d), and the Rebbeim would have special times to call each chassid to mind.

I heard that the Rebbe once said that everyone is here (770) only out of fear and not out of love. Obviously something we need to work on.
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Unread 01-11-2004, 05:46 PM   #3
Jude
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
ive said this many times, the first sign of love is that you care about the individual you love and would never harm them. that is elementary. then comes following their directives.
you didn't answer the question - do you agree that the definition of a chasid is someone who loves the Rebbe MORE than himself?

what does "caring" about the individual mean?

and not harming? there are billions of people in the world that we don't harm; it doesn't mean we love them
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Unread 01-11-2004, 05:49 PM   #4
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The custom of chassidim mekusharim – in every single generation – was to have a set time, whether an hour a day or once a week, or two weeks or once a month, to arouse feelings of love for their teacher and Rebbe. Simply to love the Rebbe with love felt in the heart like love “of the flesh” for a wife and children. [This was] in addition to mentioning the Rebbe in bentching in the “horachaman hu yivarech es moreinu v’Rabbeinu.” And when arousing feelings of love they would picture to themselves those times that they were in yechidus, or they heard chassidus, or were at a farbrengen, for by doing so they were constantly connected. Of course, actual avoda is above all the rest, each according to his ability, whether by oneself or with others.

(Igros Kodesh of the Rebbe Rayatz, vol. 6, p. 353)
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Unread 01-11-2004, 06:06 PM   #5
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<<and not harming? there are billions of people in the world that we don't harm; it doesn't mean we love them>>

Jude,

but if you do harm them then you certainly do not love them. Now take a good look around you and tell me who loves the rebbe.
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Unread 01-11-2004, 06:15 PM   #6
iamachassid
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intentionally or because they mistakenly think that what they are doing is something loving and definitely not hurtful to the Rebbe?
<<do you think young people today love the Rebbe?>>
Do older people? It may be harder for the younger ones but I think all people have to work very hard on really, bepnimiyus feeling a personal love for the Rebbe and not just a "peer pressure" ever- chassid- loves -the- rebbe- and- I -do- too kind of love.
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Unread 01-11-2004, 06:31 PM   #7
Leayis
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unintentionally is no ecuse. if you see that it harms then you can not continue in that way if you love the rebbe. would a mother unintentionally harm her child for 10 years straight? no. after her fidrst mistake she would never do it again because she loves her child.
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Unread 01-11-2004, 06:51 PM   #8
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Stop beating around the bush, and just say what you think: "Mishichistim are harming the Rebbe."

Maybe the opposite is true...
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Unread 01-11-2004, 07:55 PM   #9
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Sholom: you asked us to report posts that bring up the Moshiach controversy
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Unread 01-11-2004, 09:33 PM   #10
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Did OUR Rebbe ever used the concept of "love for the Rebbe" in his sichos?
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Unread 01-11-2004, 09:42 PM   #11
Leayis
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<<Stop beating around the bush, and just say what you think: "Mishichistim are harming the Rebbe.">>

while i dont think there is any doubt about that, this thread is not about if the mishichisten harmed the rebbe or not. its about love for the rebbe and i gave a hesber. my intention was not to say that m's harm the rebbe. my intention was to expalin what love means.
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Unread 01-11-2004, 10:31 PM   #12
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bechlal bezman haze ppl talk about love (vedal).

if you mean hiskashrus and devotion -for sure ppl today have it- espesially antis who really care about the Rebbe.

but meshichistim care about their own feelings- and this thread is a proof.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:27 AM   #13
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7for70 is not a slur.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 06:56 AM   #14
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but it is controversial, which is what the above poster was supposedly objecting against. let's be consistent here
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Unread 01-12-2004, 09:50 AM   #15
Leayis
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Noah,

i dont get all bent out of shape from controvecial issues. we are talking about loving the rebbe, jude asked for examples and hesberim on it. i expalined what i think is appropriate. its impossible to talk about the middle eats with out mentioning arafat, right? so the palestinians will come and say hey, cant you talk about the region with out talking about us? cant you stay away from controvercial issues? the answer is simple. if you want to talk about the middle eats you must mention israel and the palestinians.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 10:00 AM   #16
rebayzl
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Lea, instead of getting personal and typing unreadable posts full of typo's, perhaps you can teach us what "Love For The Rebbe" really is about.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 10:05 AM   #17
Leayis
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love for the rebbe is like any love. Caring for the person. and the first sign that one cares is that you dont harmm him. no? i said that yesterday with out mentioning one word about mishichistin, but interestingly the minute one mentions harming the rebbe its assumed even by the m's that it reffers to them. How interesting. why does an anti not think it means him? think about that.

dont blame me for getting pwersonal. i did not mention one word about any one.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 10:56 AM   #18
rebayzl
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ok.

Now explain, please:

1. How can we love somone who is not with us.
2. How can those who never saw the Rebbe love him.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 11:50 AM   #19
Leayis
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1) does one stop loving a father who died?
2) Can you love Hashem even though you never saw him? I think it is possible to love the rebbe even if you never saw him. you have to educate those who never saw him bigashmiyus what he represents and what he is, even now. With the proper hadrocho one can develope that kind of relationship. look at the tzeierie hatzon, some of them have real feelings of love for the rebbe.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 11:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
1) does one stop loving a father who died?
2) Can you love Hashem even though you never saw him? I think it is possible to love the rebbe even if you never saw him. you have to educate those who never saw him bigashmiyus what he represents and what he is, even now. With the proper hadrocho one can develope that kind of relationship. look at the tzeierie hatzon, some of them have real feelings of love for the rebbe.
1. true, but the talmud says that we forget peopel after 12 months.
2. You can't compare the L Rebbe ZT'L to HaShem who is mechayah each of us every minute. Obviously if you don't recognize His hashgochah, you cannot love Him.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 11:57 AM   #21
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Does one Love his father after he passed away? I dont know how the feeling of "love" can be applied to somone who is not with us. You can say you Miss him, but Love does not make sense to me.

The People I had what I think is feelings of love for, who passed away, I dont feel that i Love them in the present tense. Enlighten me, please.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 12:07 PM   #22
Leayis
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rebayzl,

If C"V a child dies, the parents keep on loving him. examples: They care that his memory is perpetuated in a positive way. They will care very much when someone speaks against them. they cherish every thing about them: e.g. they will care for the things their child cared for. etc. etc. those are expressions of love. its alot more then just missing them.

Reb Moshe. i gave the example of hashem only as an answer to rebayzl who questioned how you can love someone or something you never saw? to that i gave an example of hashem who we dont see. i was not comparing anything.

miken doch nisht aroys reden kain vort with out being suspected that we compare the rebbe to hashem.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 12:17 PM   #23
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about forgetting after 12 months does not mean that one stops loving. it only means that you stop agonizing over their loss. i would say that that applies to regular people. not tzadikim who are here after their histalkus even more than before. for a chossid there is no 12 month period because they continue to feel the loss especially in our case where the rebbe is our rebbe even now. IOW no memale mokom. so if you wanto argue with me if al pi halacha we continue to say kadish after a year or if hilchos aveilus should continue after the year then maybe your right but as a feeling? its completely different with the rebbe. its a simple fact. chassidim continue to remember and live with the rebbe even after 9 years.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 12:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
rebayzl,
If C"V a child dies, the parents keep on loving him. examples: They care that his memory is perpetuated in a positive way. They will care very much when someone speaks against them. they cherish every thing about them: e.g. they will care for the things their child cared for. etc. etc. those are expressions of love. its alot more then just missing them.
Reb Moshe. i gave the example of hashem only as an answer to rebayzl who questioned how you can love someone or something you never saw? to that i gave an example of hashem who we dont see. i was not comparing anything.
My point was that you are not correct.
1. ones feelings weaken with time. (As does ones memory.)
2. You cannot 'love' someone you have never had a personal relationship with. You can admire them, or worship them, or have emotiosn attached to your imagination of what they are.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 12:58 PM   #25
Leayis
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the wuestion is this: can you have a personal relationship with someone you never saw? i think yes. and therefore you can love someone you never saw. this applies especially to a rebbe.
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