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Unread 01-09-2011, 01:57 PM   #26
Meshulam
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TS, you're right that Chassidim should drive safely. I think people are bristling at your labeling this a Chabad issue, or claiming that in order to be "Chassidish," you have to drive carelessly. As others have put it, everyone should drive safely.

Perhaps the best approach is to underscore that Chassidim, inasmuch as we are supposed to be the best and the brightest that the Jewish people have to offer, should hold themselves to a higher level of driving safety than the average person. You didn't do this. Instead, you came on here claiming that Chassidim drink and drive; and while some Chassidim may drink and drive, I have not noticed this to be a bigger problem in our community than in the world at large.

So while your impetus is good, as T613 has put it, you have made the message largely unpalatable by blaming Chabad, rather than merely stating this as an honest concern.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 02:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Seeker View Post
Of course in the goyshe world there're more accidents but who cares!
Frankly, this is is very problematic. It is hard to believe that your concerns are honest when you say things like this.
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In my view, that's the whole problem we have nowadays among us. We're so concerned about defending ourselves and winning an argument that we fail in solving issues that affect our communities terribly.
No. We may be disagreeing with you because you are wrong, rather than because we are defensive. I know it can be hard to find fault in oneself when the alternative is finding fault in the other. But you should try that it approach just this once.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 02:31 PM   #28
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TS, you're right that Chassidim should drive safely. I think people are bristling at your labeling this a Chabad issue, or claiming that in order to be "Chassidish," you have to drive carelessly. As others have put it, everyone should drive safely.

Perhaps the best approach is to underscore that Chassidim, inasmuch as we are supposed to be the best and the brightest that the Jewish people have to offer, should hold themselves to a higher level of driving safety than the average person. You didn't do this. Instead, you came on here claiming that Chassidim drink and drive; and while some Chassidim may drink and drive, I have not noticed this to be a bigger problem in our community than in the world at large.

So while your impetus is good, as T613 has put it, you have made the message largely unpalatable by blaming Chabad, rather than merely stating this as an honest concern.
If things were said that way, so, yes, everybody would have agreed with True Seeker...
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Unread 01-09-2011, 03:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by True Seeker View Post
Of course in the goyshe world there're more accidents but who cares!
Is such a careless (or should I say: callous) attitude towards בריותיו של הקב"ה a result of how we are educated? Not the fault of Chassidus of course, but perhaps the result of feeling "chassidish" on a certain level. Nu nu.
[In general, this stress on accidents in "Chabad" davka, when we have unfortunately accidents (and tragedies) all over, somehow rubs me the wrong way (among other things thar were stated n this thread). Maybe because I don't feel "chassidish" enough. Time to farbreng, I guess].

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Why do you react so fast? What do you think is my point besides trying to help prevent accidents? Of course there must be an issue in the way we are educated! I'm not saying chas v'sholom there's an issue with Chassidus but with the way we apply it to real life problems like the one on this thread.
Read, my friend. I said it detracts from your point.
I guess you see what you want to see.

Last edited by Torah613; 01-09-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 03:17 PM   #30
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The OP's point is lost because of the way it is phrased, which teaches an important point about how to accomplish social change in Chabad (and pretty much any other community). If you immediately insult or denigrate something the community prides itself on (in this case, being chassidish), then you've lost your audience before you make your point.

The fact is, everyone should be concerned about drunk driving. Everyone should be concerned about safe driving in general. We are no different.

Rabbonim, melamdim, mashpiim, and anyone else in a position of authority or influence should set a good example and should stress to our community and especially our children that they must use their heads and make good decisions. That means knowing one's limitations, not showing off, not being careless, not caving to peer pressure, and all the rest of it. None of that is unique to Chabad, but all of it is shiach.

It is a good idea to collect sayings of the Rebbe and other leaders on the subject. People enjoy reading such collections and tend to listen to them. And whenever we can bring attention to an issue, the extra attention has a way of affecting change by itself.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 09:50 PM   #31
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I've never met anyone who thinks it's "chassidish" to drive fast. If someone can think something so foolish, they probably have plenty of other problems that mean that a declaration from Rabbonim won't make a dent in the armour of their meshugaas'n.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 11:53 PM   #32
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I've never met anyone who thinks it's "chassidish" to drive fast. If someone can think something so foolish, they probably have plenty of other problems that mean that a declaration from Rabbonim won't make a dent in the armour of their meshugaas'n.
There is some truth to this I'm afraid.

In my experience, there is an attitude of being above goyishe laws if they do not suit our purposes. It comes, I think, from all of the exciting stories about underground brisim and smuggling tefillin into Russia. And the attitude makes for some great mivtzoyim stories, but it can have its drawbacks as well.

I don't think we should change who we are. But if we can do anything to channel the energy in the right direction... its worth the effort. And obviously, safe driving is just one of many such issues.
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Unread 01-10-2011, 12:48 AM   #33
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not only from Russia
What about nowadays places like Venezuela, Argentina, Mexico, etc, where the corruption is completley open, where the dina demalchusa is a joke
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Unread 01-10-2011, 09:08 AM   #34
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Its not about dina demalchusa dina... its about making safe decisions.

I agree with you CN that the rebellious attitude allows us to accomplish things that others can not in place like those you mentioned, and even in the US or other more "civilized" places. That's why I say we should not change who we are.

But nobody is perfect. Our strengths can also be our weaknesses. So we have to continue to get better.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 08:49 AM   #35
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um, just because there are more accidents involving non-jews is meaningless. They represent numbers over 50 times ours. (hence statisticaly we should represent only one out of every 50 accidents)

However, I will say that having lived almost all of my life (as a frum jew) among non-jews and non-frum jews, I will agree that frum jewish men are, on average, much worse drivers (mostly interms of their willingness to speed or run redlights when they do not see any other cars) than non-frum-jewish men. However, I do not see any appriciable difference in this between different groups of frum men.

however, the problem of double parking (and other parking violations) is rampant amoungst frum women too.

while speeding is also common amoungst non-jews, the degree to which we speed is much much greater than the degree to which non-frum speed (up to 5 MPH is the rule i heard from a police officer who upbraided me for not speeding like everyone else.) (in practice its ten because most radars can't read any better than that.)

the degree to which this simply represents new york attitudes incroaching into frum circles I don't have the foggiest, I'm just reporting an observation.

I will, however, report, that from what i've seen frum jews do tend to obide traffic laws when their need is obvious, something that non-jews (that I know) who are as troubled in this regard as jews, rarely do.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 09:40 AM   #36
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however, the problem of double parking (and other parking violations) is rampant amoungst frum women too.
Sometimes it's necessary and you don't have any other choice.

(And no, I have neither car nor a driver's license. I say it so you cannot accuse me of justifying the double park because I may be one of those who do it. But sometimes there is no other choice but to double park. And if it's for a few minutes, where is the problem?)

And BTW, what's the point of specifying that i's rampant amongst frum women?
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Unread 01-12-2011, 09:51 AM   #37
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Go to Boro Park
nobody blown the horn, nobody take your place when you are parking, everyone stops their cars to make sure that all pedestrians cross streets safely
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Unread 01-12-2011, 10:28 AM   #38
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I'm happy we all had the benefit of ktonton's statistical analysis. I can't wait for a thread about personal hygiene amongst frum men...
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Unread 01-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #39
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Unfortunately, there is an image of uncivil people that stick to the skin of the Lubavitcher Chasidim (there may be some truth in that, because I assure you that in Paris, I am sometimes ashamed when I see how some members of the community behave. It is, for instance, well known that a Lubavitcher in Paris rarely waits for the green light to cross the street. Nevertheless, what I don't agree with Ktonton and True Seeker's analysis is that they make vague and general statements about chassidim as a whole, which removes credibility in their statements. You should avoid generalities. The problem is that you will see that any time a tragic event happen in the community, it is portrayed by some as being something which "prevails" into the community. When you hear cases of abuse in the frum world, it becomes something common in the community, when you hear cases of a frum murdering another yid, it becomes something common in the community, when you hear cases of wild behavior among meshichisten, it becomes the problem number one of Chabad, when you hear cases of frum yidden who don't wait the grenn light to cross, the whole community is portrayed as being uncivil, and so on, and so on.

Our world is not perfect and some behaviors among us are questionnable, to say otherwise is a lie, but make negative generalities is also a lie. I will argue that (Chabad) chassidim are law abiding in whenever countries they live, just hear what seculars generaly say about Chabad (they are law abide, joyous people, they are strict with themselves but do not impose anything to others, they are the more "open" ultra-orthodox, etc. Chassidim are generaly seen with a high esteem by other...except by fellow frum yidden for whom everything is black in Chabad (they don't care about the law, they are uncivil, they are negligent people when they drive cars, they don't care about gashmius and life, and so on...)
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Unread 01-12-2011, 10:51 AM   #40
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Sometimes it's necessary and you don't have any other choice.

(And no, I have neither car nor a driver's license. I say it so you cannot accuse me of justifying the double park because I may be one of those who do it. But sometimes there is no other choice but to double park. And if it's for a few minutes, where is the problem?)

And BTW, what's the point of specifying that i's rampant amongst frum women?
When you are stuck in the traffic jam (let alone safety issues) that results from some selfish ... who double parks on a busy street "for just a few minutes), or blocked by the selfish fellow "for a few minutes" so that you can't go out and be on time wherever you have to go - I will explain to you "what is the problem".
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Unread 01-12-2011, 10:57 AM   #41
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I can't wait for a thread about personal hygiene amongst frum men...
It reminds me of that article from Ha'aretz reported on VIZ about dental care among Charedim.

THe simple fact that it comes from Ha'aretz says it all. As has been noted by some commentators:

Quote:
The article, typical of Ha'aretz anti-orthodox propaganda, sounds like "we're finally gonna get those filthy chareidim to brush their teeth." (You know, to help those vermin from spreading diseases.)
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I though the same. It is pathetic, as if it was the first time that Charedi people were concerned about their health and hygiena, as if we had discovered that taking care of our teeth was important.
There are some people in this forum (maybe by ignorance) who portray Chassidim as if we don't care about gashmius and life, our health or our hygiena or the dina d'malkhusa. Every time they hear and witness something, they deem it a "chasidic" problem...
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Unread 01-12-2011, 11:03 AM   #42
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When you are stuck in the traffic jam (let alone safety issues) that results from some selfish ... who double parks on a busy street "for just a few minutes), I will explain to you "what is the problem".
I don't advocate double park and I 100% agree with you that double park is selfish. When I mention "a few minutes", I'm thinking about 2 or 3 minutes, not more. It's just that there are some situations when a quick double park is not worthy to make a fuss (take the kids in from school or quickly unload the car when there is no parking place available).

Of course, someone who double park 10 minutes (sometime more than that) is selfish and cares only about himself.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 11:06 AM   #43
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נתת דבריך לשיעורים. Why is 3 minutes of my time being blocked by that fellow less valuable than his? Why should I be late for my appointment/minyan/job whatever?
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Unread 01-12-2011, 11:10 AM   #44
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It won't bother me if there is a good reason...

Whatever. Everyone is different, and there are different reactions to the same occurence.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 11:59 AM   #45
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agree with a 10 seconds blocking time
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Unread 01-12-2011, 12:30 PM   #46
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Unfortunately, there is an image of uncivil people that stick to the skin of the Lubavitcher Chasidim (there may be some truth in that, because I assure you that in Paris, I am sometimes ashamed when I see how some members of the community behave. It is, for instance, well known that a Lubavitcher in Paris rarely waits for the green light to cross the street. Nevertheless, what I don't agree with Ktonton and True Seeker's analysis is that they make vague and general statements about chassidim as a whole, which removes credibility in their statements. You should avoid generalities. The problem is that you will see that any time a tragic event happen in the community, it is portrayed by some as being something which "prevails" into the community. When you hear cases of abuse in the frum world, it becomes something common in the community, when you hear cases of a frum murdering another yid, it becomes something common in the community, when you hear cases of wild behavior among meshichisten, it becomes the problem number one of Chabad, when you hear cases of frum yidden who don't wait the grenn light to cross, the whole community is portrayed as being uncivil, and so on, and so on.
Would you like to see some statistics? For driving, I have no statistics. For health, I have spoken to a social worker in the community who has done studies to show that child-hood obesity is more common in the frum community than the national average, and that depression and other mental health concerns are more common in frum girl's schools than the national average for high schools.

There are things we should be doing about these issues, and B"H people are trying. But if the statistics were not there, would it then be okay for us to let our children eat poorly and not exercise? Would it then be okay to ignore signs of mental health problems in teenage girls?

Studies help us see where we should be focusing our attention. But if something isn't safe, or isn't menschlich, or isn't good for the community, we have to deal with it no matter what.

Cuba has 100% literacy rate. Does that mean they should stop having reading classes?
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Unread 01-12-2011, 02:04 PM   #47
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For health, I have spoken to a social worker in the community who has done studies to show that child-hood obesity is more common in the frum community than the national average, and that depression and other mental health concerns are more common in frum girl's schools than the national average for high schools.

There are things we should be doing about these issues, and B"H people are trying. But if the statistics were not there, would it then be okay for us to let our children eat poorly and not exercise? Would it then be okay to ignore signs of mental health problems in teenage girls?
Nobody denied that they were some problems to fix in the community.

But to generalize is the problem.

The social worker you spoke with, did he investigate your community or did he make a global investigation?

The problem of a specific community is not the same of another one. There are things here in Paris that are problematic but non existent in American communities, and vice versa (btw, childhood obesity among frum yidden in America may be connected to the American lifestyle (you know, junk food, fast food, etc.). But France was ranked the European country where you eat in the healthiest way, and this is also reflected in how the local Jewish community eats. The same way about compliance with the traffic rules. We may argue that frum American Jews adhere less to traffic rules because they live in enclaves (CH, BP, Williamsburgh, etc.), so some may claim thet it creates a feeling of being home and not having to obey the secular laws, and in America they enjoy a sense of freedom thanks to the Constitution, while this kind of problem is less common in countries where Chassidim do not live in enclaves but are mixed with non-Jews and don't enjoy the same "freedom" than in America, but have some other issues to fix. So I think that every community is different with its own problems and specifications, and we cannot generalize because we know ten cases in our neighbourhood, and call it a "Chassidish/frum" problem)
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Unread 01-12-2011, 02:34 PM   #48
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Would you like to see some statistics? For driving, I have no statistics. For health, I have spoken to a social worker in the community who has done studies to show that child-hood obesity is more common in the frum community than the national average, and that depression and other mental health concerns are more common in frum girl's schools than the national average for high schools.
I recently read an article suggesting that anorexia in the frum community is higher than the national average. Which is it? Are we too fat? Or are we too thin? Depression is up in the frum community? How is there possibly a statistic on that? I would hazard a guess that in communities where things like regular doctor visits are less encouraged, depression isn't picked up with the alacrity that we apparently are finding it in our communities.

Moreover, I would also hazard a guess that if this social worker (social work is not an objective science on a good day) is a frum person herself, her statistics are skewed the same way the OP's observations are skewed.
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There are things we should be doing about these issues, and B"H people are trying. But if the statistics were not there, would it then be okay for us to let our children eat poorly and not exercise? Would it then be okay to ignore signs of mental health problems in teenage girls?
Obviously not. I just reject the implication that lawlessness and obesity is some kind of cultural phenomenon.
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Studies help us see where we should be focusing our attention. But if something isn't safe, or isn't menschlich, or isn't good for the community, we have to deal with it no matter what.
Agreed. And everyone should follow traffic safety laws. I don't think I could break the speed limit if I wanted to in my van; and I certainly expect the best out of my fellow Chassidim. If it turns out that some Chassidim have heavy feet when they drive their Toyota Siennas and Honda Odysseys (and the occasional GMC mega-vans), I don't think its necessary to ascribe their behavior to the group any more than we point at the latest Ponzi-Schemer out of Brooklyn and call him the average Orthodox Jew.
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Cuba has 100% literacy rate. Does that mean they should stop having reading classes?
Nobody ever dies in Cuba, either. That's the nice thing about controlling the flow of information... the information reflects whatever you want it to reflect.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 03:13 PM   #49
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Nobody ever dies in Cuba, either. That's the nice thing about controlling the flow of information... the information reflects whatever you want it to reflect.
This was exactly what I said previously, that the reason why people think that they are more problems in Lubavitch than elsewhere is because we are communicant and we don't know much about others (even the OP's admitted that he doesn't know want happen in the other frum circles).

The fact that we all heard about those tragic car accidents involving Lubavitchers is not a proof that in Lubavitch, car accodents or wild and unsafe driving is a prevailing problem among chassidim and particularly Lubavitcher, even if it doesn't change the fact that we should act and drive safely (this applies to any human being who drive, and we don't need a Psak issued by a Beis Din to understand that). But to promote theories such that it happens in Lubavitch because Lubavitchers don't care about gashmius, life and because they are not law abiding, or that this is a specific problem in Lubavitch or that it happens more in the frum community than secular one (as was proposed by True Seeker and Ktonton), cannot be further from the truth.
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Unread 01-12-2011, 03:44 PM   #50
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Would you like to see some statistics? For driving, I have no statistics. For health, I have spoken to a social worker in the community who has done studies to show that child-hood obesity is more common in the frum community than the national average, and that depression and other mental health concerns are more common in frum girl's schools than the national average for high schools.

?
any souces for these statistics?
mental health concern common in girls schools?
do you know that in many statistics many frum ppl are labeled as "mental health problem" b/c they became frum?
like trying to find a refuge believing on G-d b/c they are weak?
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