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Unread 08-12-2008, 11:29 PM   #51
noahidelaws
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To support ykh, the Rebbe spoke in the sicha of 28 Nissan about the reason that we don't cry out ad mosai mit an emes being because we are still in our golus pnimi. Obviously, the way to go out of golus pnimi is through avoda pnimis, which is b'ikar through avodas hatefillah, which is avodah shebelev, etc.
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Unread 08-13-2008, 12:42 AM   #52
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Those are all excellent sources. But there is no source in any of the above for the notion that somehow being a pnimi in all inyonim is necessary in order to be a pnimi vis a vis Moshiach. I fear that much of this is designed to take the wind out of the sails of those who do, according to the Rebbe's various horaos from 1988 onward, koch in inyonei geulah u'Moshiach... and who may be the yechidim v'yedidim who call Ad Mosai (or Yechi HaMelech, another expression that the Rebbe gave paramount importance to) with an Emes.

Noachides may partially agree with me on this one: The "institutions" often water down the message of 1988 onward (in shleimus Haaretz, Moshiach, and other areas... ) due to the fear of appearing out of the mainstream. They worry that any mention of Moshiach will conjure images of mishichism in the minds of their audience. So they therefore don't talk about Moshiach. And when they do, its relegated to a small corner of a "L'Chaim" publication, or at the end of an otherwise "mainstream" dvar Torah the way misnagdim have done it for a generation or more now.

When questioned about why they practically ignore these matters, these institutional folks will inevitably complain about Mishichistim, and then revert to discussing the entire history of Chabad, quoting HaYom-Yom, and the Rebbe Rayya'tz, etc., but ignoring very new tekufah that the Rebbe introduced in 1988, and more forcefully in the early 90s. I know what the Rebbe said in HaYom-Yom. Do you know what the Rebbe said in nun-alef? Because, frankly, it seems hard for me to believe, looking at any of the various sichos from that tekufah, that the Rebbe would pour cold water on someone who is interested in Moshiach, and who wants to want Moshiach, by telling them that they need to be m'ayin in Avodah Sh'b'lev, and mitzvos b'hiddur before they can really focus on Moshiach. So I ask you again: please bring me some source for your various claims that doesn't involve a drosho (complete with logical leaps and conjectures) on your part.

(Lest you dismiss me as some radical: look around at some of my posts-- I have been very critical of the hit-and-run mishichistim on this site who single-mindedly fly into propaganda laden posts. But I am equally critical of Lubavitchers who try to pretend that Moshiach is just one of the various things that we have to put on our rather long list of things to worry about. Moshiach is the ikkar of our Tekufah. It is supposed to be first and foremost in our mind. And if we hold it in our mind the way the Rebbe commanded us to, the inyonim in Avodah will follow.)
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Unread 08-13-2008, 11:43 AM   #53
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I fear that much of this is designed to take the wind out of the sails of those who do, according to the Rebbe's various horaos from 1988 onward, koch in inyonei geulah u'Moshiach... and who may be the yechidim v'yedidim who call Ad Mosai (or Yechi HaMelech, another expression that the Rebbe gave paramount importance to) with an Emes.
Intention is 180 degrees opposite. To use your metaphor of "wind in sails", the intention is like saying" enough sailing toy ship in a puddle, lets sail real ship in the ocean.
As about "koch mit emes", maybe I misunderstand the Rebbe's famous statement to the extent of "Moshiach would be here if people called for him in truth".
On the other hand we don't know what goes on in hearts of others and can speak only for ourselves.
And talking to ourselves we may may ask ourselves, does the absence of Moshiach bothers us? Does it bother us so that we feel the pain physically? Do we really yearn for his immediate revelation? And we probably have some examples in our lives to compare our feeling to something we are feeling or once felt strong about.

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and also, maybe you can explain, ykh, what the avoda of mochin is. i am lubavitch and im sure ive heard that concept before, but a little explaining is necessary at this point as well as practical application.
What I meant was well known concept described in Tanya and many other places, that the emotions may be of 2 kinds: natural (which are wild and basically expression of animal soul) and those born from intellect (and if the contemplation, from which these emotions are born, is holy, then the emotions are also holy).
In Kuntres HaTfilah the Rebbe Rashab basically brings up the point, that profound contemplation on a (chassidic) subject, done with effort and toil, will inevitably give rise to real emotions fo love and fear, that the person will experience then during davening.
The same obviously applies to Moshiach.
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Unread 08-13-2008, 11:51 AM   #54
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Intention is 180 degrees opposite. To use your metaphor of "wind in sails", the intention is like saying" enough sailing toy ship in a puddle, lets sail real ship in the ocean.
As about "koch mit emes", maybe I misunderstand the Rebbe's famous statement to the extent of "Moshiach would be here if people called for him in truth".
On the other hand we don't know what goes on in hearts of others and can speak only for ourselves.
And talking to ourselves we may may ask ourselves, does the absence of Moshiach bothers us? Does it bother us so that we feel the pain physically? Do we really yearn for his immediate revelation? And we probably have some examples in our lives to compare our feeling to something we are feeling or once felt strong about.
No argument here. Perhaps I was mistaken. It seemed like you were telling our new friend here that in order to want Moshiach, she should work on Avodah Sh'b'Lev, and worry less about actually wanting Moshiach. I just found that to be counterintuitive.

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What I meant was well known concept described in Tanya and many other places, that the emotions may be of 2 kinds: natural (which are wild and basically expression of animal soul) and those born from intellect (and if the contemplation, from which these emotions are born, is holy, then the emotions are also holy).
In Kuntres HaTfilah the Rebbe Rashab basically brings up the point, that profound contemplation on a (chassidic) subject, done with effort and toil, will inevitably give rise to real emotions fo love and fear, that the person will experience then during davening.
The same obviously applies to Moshiach.
Once again, no complaints. I would only add that, on top of more pnimiyusdike meditation, it is also important to learn the Rebbe's sichos about the issue of Moshiach.
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Unread 08-13-2008, 11:56 AM   #55
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Moshiach is the ikkar of our Tekufah. It is supposed to be first and foremost in our mind. And if we hold it in our mind the way the Rebbe commanded us to, the inyonim in Avodah will follow.)
Very well. And it does not negate my point. For example, a person, according to chabad teachings has to contemplate profoundly on chassidic topics before davening in order that the davening be as it supposed to be - union with Hashem in love and fear.
Let's say someone is contemplating on Moshiach topic before davening. I say if the person still had extraneous thoughts during davening, the "koch in Moshiach matters" before davening was not as supposed to be (according Kuntres haTfilah).

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No argument here. Perhaps I was mistaken. It seemed like you were telling our new friend here that in order to want Moshiach, she should work on Avodah Sh'b'Lev, and worry less about actually wanting Moshiach. I just found that to be counterintuitive.
No, I was trying to express my thoughts on what is the proper way to "raise indicator handle" - where from actual wanting Moshiach is coming from.

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Once again, no complaints. I would only add that, on top of more pnimiyusdike meditation, it is also important to learn the Rebbe's sichos about the issue of Moshiach.
Do you want to say that meditation about Moshiach is not necessarily that pnimiyusdik?
What do you call pnimiyusdike meditation?
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Unread 08-13-2008, 01:09 PM   #56
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The term "pnimiyusdike meditation" was not meant to imply that there was some "chitzoniyus meditation." But since you brought it up, there are many levels of meditation. Clearly, the deepest levels are preferable; but any attempt to become closer to the Rebbe's teachings on this subject should be praised.

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Very well. And it does not negate my point. For example, a person, according to chabad teachings has to contemplate profoundly on chassidic topics before davening in order that the davening be as it supposed to be - union with Hashem in love and fear.
Let's say someone is contemplating on Moshiach topic before davening. I say if the person still had extraneous thoughts during davening, the "koch in Moshiach matters" before davening was not as supposed to be (according Kuntres haTfilah).
I would only add that contemplating Moshiach can be a very high level of hisbonenus. As is brought down in various places, Moshiach brings the highest level of hasogas elokus (see the end of Yom Tom Sh'Chal lihiyos b'Shabbos, Samech Vov; the end of the last hagoh in Sharei HaYichud V'HaEmunah of R' Aharon; and various maamorim of the Rebbe).

But, of course, when I'm talking about learning about Moshiach matters, what I mean is that after davening at some point, one opens up Sefer HaSichos from 1988 onward, and learn sichos b'iyun (which should be required reading in Chabad Yeshivos).
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Unread 08-13-2008, 01:29 PM   #57
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Why "after davening"?
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Unread 08-13-2008, 03:06 PM   #58
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perhaps he's just being frum and realizes that nigla, even from the Rebbe, is nigla and not Chassidus.
and if your question is why right after davening? i am surprised that you missed his words 'at some point'. meaning that hi intention with the words after davening meant to exclude learning nigla inyonim of inyonei moshiach ugeula before davening. vdal vkal.
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Unread 08-13-2008, 03:08 PM   #59
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Why "after davening"?
Fine. Do it before davening as well. I just meant that it should be part of the seder halimud, rather than something that is merely dabbled in.
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Unread 08-14-2008, 04:55 PM   #60
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On Thursday morning go outside and ask for a divine touch then look to your right. Don't move until you feel "the presence." Ask the meaning of this message: (You will have to cut and paste the link into your browser because it isn't linking, but perhaps that is part of your challenge.)

http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php

If then you haven't embraced Moshiach, don't worry, you will in a little while.
Some of you may have laughed at this some may not have. Though it wasn't spoken to me, I decided a divine touch would be just what I needed.

I went out side this morning, stood on the steps and said, "L-rd, I need that divine touch." I turned to the right, just as the post said to, with in 3 seconds, a baby squirrel came out from the side of the house and bound toward me. I stood still and watched. The little thing stopped twice looked out over the yard then came closer toward me. It passed within a foot of my feet and never even acknowledging my presence. The timing was perfect and I was awe struck and the whole thing warmed my heart. The divine touch was a peace and a quiet music in my soul, brought about by experiencing one of the beautiful creations of HaShem.

Hope someone else got to enjoy the touch this morning.
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Unread 08-18-2008, 03:56 PM   #61
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i think we've gone totally of topic
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Unread 08-18-2008, 04:10 PM   #62
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i think we've gone totally of topic
Today is such a flowery day.

Yifrach b'yamav tzadik.
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Unread 08-20-2008, 07:42 PM   #63
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I went out side this morning, stood on the steps and said, "L-rd, I need that divine touch." I turned to the right, just as the post said to, with in 3 seconds, a baby squirrel came out from the side of the house and bound toward me. I stood still and watched. The little thing stopped twice looked out over the yard then came closer toward me. It passed within a foot of my feet and never even acknowledging my presence. The timing was perfect and I was awe struck and the whole thing warmed my heart. The divine touch was a peace and a quiet music in my soul, brought about by experiencing one of the beautiful creations of HaShem.

Hope someone else got to enjoy the touch this morning.
Shal, with all due respect, if it were not that the little squirrel spoke and said, "boker tov Shalie" I wouldn't get too excited. If you really want the divine touch, surrender to Hashem and touch others with your mitsvot.
Walter
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Unread 08-20-2008, 09:39 PM   #64
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Shal, with all due respect, if it were not that the little squirrel spoke and said, "boker tov Shalie" I wouldn't get too excited. If you really want the divine touch, surrender to Hashem and touch others with your mitsvot.
Walter
Perhaps, Walter, that is the reason I was able to recieve from Hashem. Can you discribe just what that touch you speak of is like? Sometimes those touches are beyond human words, and we can only discribe them in terms that we know of. Sometimes what happens doesn't quite happen as we or others expect it to. Should we disqualify it, even though we know what it is?

I had an interesting thought today. Sometimes we have preconceived ideas as to how something is or isn't going to happen. Like with the great Sages and their understandings and teaching of the Moshiah and who, how or what he will be. And we cling to these thoughts or teachings, believing that there is no other way that they could possible be any other way then what we are taught to believe they will be.

Then I thought of how it was when as a child I believed in the tooth fair. The tooth fair was real, there was evidence of that with every tooth I put under the pillow at night and the next morning awoke to a nice shiny quarter. My perception of who or what the tooth fair was, was fashioned by what I was told to believe she was. In reality, there was a tooth fairy but, she was nowhere close to what I believed her to be. See that tooth fairy wasn't some tiny mystical being fluttering around the room in a nice pink gown with wings. But was my mother or father who came into my room and removed the tooth and gave me that treasured quarter took the tooth and threw it in the garbage.

So as with the Moshiah, will he be some mystifying super human, or will he just be a ordanary man, who works to accomplish what he is sent to do without publicity or a following of people hanging on his every word, until AFTER he has accomplished what he is to do? Do we dare to look deeper into the teachings and see what may be but wasn't spoken about?
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Unread 08-21-2008, 08:16 AM   #65
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Perhaps, Walter, that is the reason I was able to recieve from Hashem. Can you discribe just what that touch you speak of is like? Sometimes those touches are beyond human words, and we can only discribe them in terms that we know of. Sometimes what happens doesn't quite happen as we or others expect it to. Should we disqualify it, even though we know what it is?
When we give of ourself unconditionaly, it is then that we experience "the gentle touch" of Hashem. The hasid finds himself as a stranger in the world surrounded by forces that are in opposition to Torah. There is no quick feel good mumbo jumbo outiside of Paxil and Zanex. Perhaps you should review the navi of old and the "touch" they experienced when approaching G-d. I can assure you, it was anything but peaceful. It was very taxing on the reciever.
Walter
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Unread 08-21-2008, 05:15 PM   #66
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When we give of ourself unconditionaly, it is then that we experience "the gentle touch" of Hashem. The hasid finds himself as a stranger in the world surrounded by forces that are in opposition to Torah. There is no quick feel good mumbo jumbo outiside of Paxil and Zanex. Perhaps you should review the navi of old and the "touch" they experienced when approaching G-d. I can assure you, it was anything but peaceful. It was very taxing on the reciever.
Walter
Do you believe that HaShem deals with everyone in the same way? Or does he give to his children individually and uniquely, what he knows they need, whether or not it is what we expect?

I am not a navi of old, therefore I do not expect the "touch" that they experienced. But as you stated in the first sentence.... (When we give of ourself unconditionaly, it is then that we experience "the gentle touch" of Hashem.) What makes you think that I have not given of myself unconditionally?
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Unread 08-22-2008, 07:36 AM   #67
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Do you believe that HaShem deals with everyone in the same way? Or does he give to his children individually and uniquely, what he knows they need, whether or not it is what we expect?

I am not a navi of old, therefore I do not expect the "touch" that they experienced. But as you stated in the first sentence.... (When we give of ourself unconditionaly, it is then that we experience "the gentle touch" of Hashem.) What makes you think that I have not given of myself unconditionally?
I can't answer for Hashem neither would I ever consider this idea. However, No one can stand in G-d's presence were it not that Hashem might temporarilly allow it in order for the man to receive.

I never said that I "thought" you haven't given yourself unconditionally. How could I do that? I don't know who you are or where your from. Whether you have or haven't given yourself unconditionally isn't any of my business but is between you and Hashem.

To which generation does Moshiach come, the righteous or unrighteous?
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Unread 08-22-2008, 03:50 PM   #68
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Im reading this thread and im wondering who on earth are these people who talk about/ do these high avodas. And then my music player starts the song of MBD abou the cup in heaven and g-ds tears, I am reminded of a sicha that was on living torah not long ago where the rebbe says that now we just have to stand and demand from hashem to bring moshiach! I dont recall anything about doing this avodah or that. correct me if im wrong but I think the rebbe said all that has been done and now we just have to beg and demand from hashem to bring moshiach
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Unread 08-22-2008, 04:21 PM   #69
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HeyHello, if you want to know what the Rebbe teaches, you have to learn his sichos in depth. You can't jump to a conclusion after reading one source.
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Unread 08-22-2008, 09:38 PM   #70
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I can only ask, "Where is this thread going?"

And Walter my friend, here is something to think about: Bereshit 8:7-13

And from Tractate Sanhedrin 108b
"Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated.35 R. Jeremiah said: This proves that the clean fowl dwelt with the righteous.36 And lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf taraf [as food].37 R. Eleazar said: The dove prayed to the Holy One, blessed be He, 'Sovereign of the Universe! Let my sustenance be as bitter as the olive, but in Thy charge, rather than sweet as honey and in the charge of flesh and blood.' Whence do we know that taraf connotes food? — From the verse, Feed me38 with food convenient for me.39"

Then of course, there is Eliju.

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Unread 08-24-2008, 10:29 AM   #71
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I can only ask, "Where is this thread going?"
Perhaps this thread is following along the foot prints of Moshiach. Moshiach's mantle has been high-jacked and pulled into differant directions by many, especially the goyim. How is Moshiach succesful and how is the world transformed? Moshiach recognizes his limitations and nothingness before Havayah. He relinquishes himself of all worldly thought and desires. How else can he ascend to the source? Beshet is quoted to the effect that annihilation is the only way to bear the infinite. It is written, " through his merit Moshiach shall come." What is his merit? He experiences a metaphorical death and conceives himself as if he were not. Moshiach disregards the concerns with his body. He is dead but yet alive. And by this experence he receives the "devine touch" that you and Shal refer to. Only our righteous Moshiach receives the devine touch.
Sincerely,
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Unread 08-24-2008, 08:30 PM   #72
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Perhaps this thread is following along the foot prints of Moshiach. Moshiach's mantle has been high-jacked and pulled into differant directions by many, especially the goyim. How is Moshiach succesful and how is the world transformed? Moshiach recognizes his limitations and nothingness before Havayah. He relinquishes himself of all worldly thought and desires. How else can he ascend to the source? Beshet is quoted to the effect that annihilation is the only way to bear the infinite. It is written, " through his merit Moshiach shall come." What is his merit? He experiences a metaphorical death and conceives himself as if he were not. Moshiach disregards the concerns with his body. He is dead but yet alive. And by this experence he receives the "devine touch" that you and Shal refer to. Only our righteous Moshiach receives the devine touch.
Sincerely,
Walter
I concur with everything you said except your last sentence.
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Unread 08-27-2008, 12:05 PM   #73
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I concur with everything you said except your last sentence.
Ah yes. And this has been a problem for many. That is, not being able to get there sweaty hands around something that doesn't belong to them. There are some things that belong to Hashem and Moshiach, alone! The x-tians according to their book of Revelation have 144,000 moshiachs/anointed ones to share in the "devine touch." You, Shal, and I have a x-tian background and if not careful might allow this sort of rubbish to enter in to our belief. We have been poisoned by falsehood that has no place among G-d's chosen. This whole "divine touch" has a goyish ring to it. Why? Because the majority of x-tians claim to have it as well. Of course they may call it something differant like, born again, talk'n in tongues, prophecy, healings, uncontrolable laughing spells, and the like. Isn't Torah enough, I'm mean for the sake of Torah?
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Unread 08-27-2008, 09:25 PM   #74
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Ah yes. And this has been a problem for many. That is, not being able to get there sweaty hands around something that doesn't belong to them. There are some things that belong to Hashem and Moshiach, alone! The x-tians according to their book of Revelation have 144,000 moshiachs/anointed ones to share in the "devine touch." You, Shal, and I have a x-tian background and if not careful might allow this sort of rubbish to enter in to our belief. We have been poisoned by falsehood that has no place among G-d's chosen. This whole "divine touch" has a goyish ring to it. Why? Because the majority of x-tians claim to have it as well. Of course they may call it something differant like, born again, talk'n in tongues, prophecy, healings, uncontrolable laughing spells, and the like. Isn't Torah enough, I'm mean for the sake of Torah?
I don't know that this is really the forum for your charades but you have told me in private emails that you have a xtian background and that you believe you are Moshiach ben David. I don't have time to deal with your delusions but frankly I have to ask who has an agenda here. You have disappointed me tremendously with the garbage you are now spewing. I suggest you go back to the drawing board. You haven't even scratched the surface. I didn't have the heart to tell you before in private emails when you contacted me without solicitation, but since you insist upon pushing your trash I will tell you now. Here is a reality check. You sir are no Moshaich ben David. My advice, give it a rest before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

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Unread 08-28-2008, 08:25 AM   #75
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I don't know that this is really the forum for your charades but you have told me in private emails that you have a xtian background and that you believe you are Moshiach ben David. I don't have time to deal with your delusions but frankly I have to ask who has an agenda here. You have disappointed me tremendously with the garbage you are now spewing. I suggest you go back to the drawing board. You haven't even scratched the surface. I didn't have the heart to tell you before in private emails when you contacted me without solicitation, but since you insist upon pushing your trash I will tell you now. Here is a reality check. You sir are no Moshaich ben David. My advice, give it a rest before you make a complete fool out of yourself.
Oh David, I thought you were an honorable person. First lets be honest. I told you that I had dreams of being Moshiach. Obvisiously, I have fought against these delusions. Let no one from this day forward share a private coversation with you, you obviously can't be trusted. Is this how you run your law practice? David, you for many years have called yourself a prophet from the days at Washington University and you say I suffer from delusions? I'll admit, I was wrong.., delusional? Perhaps, but I'm man enough to admit it. What say you prophet?
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