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Unread 08-08-2008, 10:14 PM   #1
Enlightend
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What about the possibility that...

Hello friends,

I would like to entertain the idea that as Moshiach must only be a paternal descendant of King David, it is entirely possible that He be in fact non-Jewish by birth.

Has any prominent Jewish figure ever discussed this possibility?

I think it makes a lot of sense; such an individual would be able to inspire the Jewish people through his wisdom, knowledge of Torah, and of course through his actions yet also appeal to the gentiles, as he would have not been indoctrinated into Judaism as a child. He would be unbiased and deliberately choose Judaism.

What do you think?
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Unread 08-09-2008, 09:44 PM   #2
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Hello friends,

I would like to entertain the idea that as Moshiach must only be a paternal descendant of King David, it is entirely possible that He be in fact non-Jewish by birth.

Has any prominent Jewish figure ever discussed this possibility?

I think it makes a lot of sense; such an individual would be able to inspire the Jewish people through his wisdom, knowledge of Torah, and of course through his actions yet also appeal to the gentiles, as he would have not been indoctrinated into Judaism as a child. He would be unbiased and deliberately choose Judaism.

What do you think?
Nevermind not jewish, Moshiach cannot even be a convert.
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Unread 11-05-2008, 02:40 AM   #3
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Oh I dunno, I'd think twice.

What makes you so sure?
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Unread 11-05-2008, 04:45 AM   #4
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Firstly, a convert is like a newborn, so they wouldn't be from Yehudah anymore if they converted. Secondly, the tribe is passed down through the father, while the Judaism is passed down through the mother. Therefore, if a Jewish man married a non-Jewish woman, his kids would be both non-Jewish and tribe-less. If a Jewish woman married a non-Jewish man, her kids would be Jewish - but they'd still be tribe-less. So...sorry, but Moshiach can't be a non-Jew.
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Unread 11-05-2008, 05:14 AM   #5
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Secondly, the tribe is passed down through the father, while the Judaism is passed down through the mother. Therefore, if a Jewish man married a non-Jewish woman, his kids would be both non-Jewish and tribe-less.
Excuse my ignorance on the matter. Why would they be tribe-less if the tribe is passed down from the father?

Nonetheless, being tribe-less and non-Jewish does not preclude that one could be a descendent of King David, and I thought that was the only prerequisite regarding Moshiach's lineage?
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Unread 11-05-2008, 08:38 AM   #6
chossidnistar
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in Judasim there is not another possibility :Moshiach si Jewish
and we do not discuss this b/c is the law, as the Rambam says in the Laws of Kings
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Unread 11-05-2008, 09:12 AM   #7
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There was an article years ago in Arutz Sheva, if I recall correctly, where a rabbi made the statement that he believes Moshiach, like Moshe, will be raised a non-Jew which will give him extraordinary insight to other religions and will help him draw others to Judaism. Some also interpreted Rabbi Kaduri as saying something similar when he said that Moshiach is alive today and wears a star under his garments where no one can see it. Bear in mind that Moshe was born a Jew though he was raised outside of Judaism. Rambam, of course, says that Moshiach cannot be a convert. One born a Jew but raised in another religion would not need to convert though they sometimes go through the conversion process.
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Unread 11-05-2008, 11:32 AM   #8
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Instead of speculating who could be Mashiach, why not ask what qualifications Mashiach must have? What is his contribution to geulah?
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Unread 11-05-2008, 06:14 PM   #9
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Why not just ask that Moshiach should come?
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Unread 11-05-2008, 06:19 PM   #10
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Instead of speculating who could be Mashiach, why not ask what qualifications Mashiach must have? What is his contribution to geulah?
Laws of Kings and their Wars 11:4
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4. If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like his ancestor David, in accordance with the written and oral Torah, and he will prevail upon all of Israel to walk in [the ways of the Torah] and strengthen its breaches, and he will fight the battles of G-d it may be assumed that he is Mashiach.

If he did [these things] successfully (and defeated all the nations around him), built the Sanctuary on its site and gathered the dispersed of Israel he is definitely Mashiach! He will [then] correct the entire world to serve G-d in unity, as it is said, For then I will turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one consent.

(If he did not succeed to that extent or was killed, it is clear that he is not the [Mashiach] promised by the Torah for all the prophets said that Mashiach is the redeemer of Israel and their savior, and he gathers their dispersed and reinforces their commandments)
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Unread 11-05-2008, 09:42 PM   #11
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Why not just ask that Moshiach should come?
Absolutely, I eagerly await His arrival. Whether he be Jew or non-Jew, black or white, He will be a great man and achieve great things.

On Maimonides, no one is impervious to fault but God. Irrespective of his stature and wisdom, you have to accept that he may have some things wrong. At this stage only God and Moshiach knows who Moshiach is.
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Unread 11-05-2008, 10:05 PM   #12
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Excuse my ignorance on the matter. Why would they be tribe-less if the tribe is passed down from the father?

Nonetheless, being tribe-less and non-Jewish does not preclude that one could be a descendent of King David, and I thought that was the only prerequisite regarding Moshiach's lineage?
They would be tribe-less because a non-Jew isn't part of a Jewish tribe. And as the tribe is passed down through the father, one would have to be a paternal descendant of King David to be from the tribe of Yehudah (King David's tribe).
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Unread 11-05-2008, 11:34 PM   #13
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Absolutely, I eagerly await His arrival. Whether he be Jew or non-Jew, black or white, He will be a great man and achieve great things.

On Maimonides, no one is impervious to fault but God. Irrespective of his stature and wisdom, you have to accept that he may have some things wrong. At this stage only God and Moshiach knows who Moshiach is.
I think what Shlucha is saying is that there is an interface of religion and genealogy. While Moshaich must be a patralineal descendant of David HaMalek, he cannot inherit that pedigree unless he is a Jew because a non-Jew cannot be a member of a tribe.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 12:12 AM   #14
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While Moshaich must be a patralineal descendant of David HaMalek, he cannot inherit that pedigree unless he is a Jew because a non-Jew cannot be a member of a tribe.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "inherit(ing) that pedigree"? Quite obviously you have a much greater breadth of Jewish knowledge than I, but this just sounds like semantics. Okay, say someone is tribe-less, how does that preclude a person from being Moshiach if he is in fact a patrilineal descendent? Tradition? Common sense? Scripture?
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Unread 11-06-2008, 12:36 AM   #15
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If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like his ancestor David, in accordance with the written and oral Torah, and he will prevail upon all of Israel to walk in [the ways of the Torah] and strengthen its breaches
So, he is a rabbi.

Quote:
and he will fight the battles of G-d [...] and defeated all the nations around him
So, he is a warrior.

Quote:
He will [then] correct the entire world to serve G-d in unity
So, considering this and the fact that there will be peace in the world, he is a politician.

Quote:
built the Sanctuary on its site
So, he is an architect. Furthermore, considering there will be no famine, he is a biologist or agriculture expert. Considering there will be no disease, he is a biologist or a doctor.

So, lets sum up: a rabbi, a politician, a military general, a biologist, a doctor, an agriculturulist, and an architect. This is what you think Mashiach is?

What does he actually need to do for all this to happen? Exercise his rabbinical, political, military, biological, medical, agricultural and architectural genius? And then geula will come? Is that what you think? Further, why are we in golus right now? Because nobody has arrived yet with all these abilities in one package and successfully exercised them? What is golus anyway absence of peace in the world, famine, diseases, lack of the Temple and Jews living outside of EY? Thats it?
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Unread 11-06-2008, 05:30 AM   #16
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Are you arguing with Ramba"m? Because that's who DW Duke quoted.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 08:45 AM   #17
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I know I run the risk of this response being deleted. First, there is only one King, Havayah. He has given us Torah. Within the Torah there is an answer for every problem life throws are way. If we would apply that which is written we could transform the world from darkness to light. This has always been at our hands. It would seem some are still looking to create a "golden calf," something they can see and touch. Remember, Hezekiah destroyed the copper snake.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't want moshiach, G-d forbid! Yet we have all the tools we need to make a differance, NOW!

Look and learn what the goyim did with their messiah. They elevated him to a diety. In most cities there are shrines every other block dedicated to this abomination.

1.) Hashem
2.) Torah

This is all you'll ever need.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 09:17 AM   #18
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Are you arguing with Ramba"m? Because that's who DW Duke quoted.
Chvsh.

I am not arguing with anybody. I am asking: what do those statements mean what I wrote (that Mashiach is literally a multi-professional Jew who has to exercise his numerous talents and that geula is lack of all those physical things), or is there anything deeper?

One can think of golus in terms of a bunch of symptoms, geula as reversal of those symptoms, and Mashiach as someone who will do the reversing, or one can say that perhaps the symptoms are a hitzoinius of some deeper, more essential and more encompassing problem, and Mashiachs role is to rectify specifically that problem, which will alleviate the symptoms.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 09:19 AM   #19
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1.) Hashem
2.) Torah

This is all you'll ever need.
Do we have that now, to the fullest possible (or even to the minimal originally planned) extent? Perhaps all coming of Mashiach is about is precisely maximalization of the two points you listed (or our relationship with them), to their deepest and most essential aspect.
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Unread 11-06-2008, 11:41 AM   #20
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Do we have that now, to the fullest possible (or even to the minimal originally planned) extent? Perhaps all coming of Mashiach is about is precisely maximalization of the two points you listed (or our relationship with them), to their deepest and most essential aspect.
Who does Moshiach learn from? Do you believe he is born with instant Torah knowledge? I hope not, this would sound a bit like x-tianity. Doesn't Moshiach also learn from the Sages? Will the student teach the teacher?
I know he will be a great Torah scholar, yet he must also learn as you learn. Your only limit is the limit you set upon yourself.

I believe it is almost impossible for Moshiach to finish a sentice without mentioning Hashem. It will be Hashem this or Hashem that. It will be Torah this or Torah that. He nevers gives attention to himself, everthing is HaShem!
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