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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:46 AM   #126
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
That is for sure.
Also a data point, if you wish: Several short weeks before 27 Adar, the Rebbe envisioned TH (any stage) not happening for quite a while...
Are you referring to a sicha?

When the Rebbe spoke of his father-in-law enclothing himself in a body and walking in to take us out of golus would this be (for the FR) Tchiyas Hameisim? Or since Yaakov Avinu lo meis such a term is not shayach?

Either way, the Rebbe did not suggest that it will be "quite a while" before we could see the FR coming to take us out of golus.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #127
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1) Yes, I am referring to a sicha - but it isn't one of the ones on the selected reading list..
2) He could have meant (I say "could", as I do not have the precise quote in front of me...) the neshomo of the FR enclothing himself in another living body - like the Rebbe writes about Dovid - ע"י גלגול. Or like the Chasam Sofer that the person who is meant to get Moshiach gets the neshomo of Moshiach at the right time - all which have nothing to do with TH.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:55 AM   #128
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My translation?
You translated the Ritva and Radvaz for us above, no?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:59 AM   #129
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Quoted, not translated.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 10:02 AM   #130
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Quoted, not translated.
You translated the quotes into English, no?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 10:10 AM   #131
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In Yemos Hamoshiach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
1) Yes, I am referring to a sicha - but it isn't one of the ones on the selected reading list..
Nu nu nu -- cite your reference.

Mr Finkelstein: As for the Rebbe saying we are in fact in Yemos Hamoshiach, it was said motzi 20 Kislev:
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Unread 11-13-2007, 10:17 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Mr Finkelstein: As for the Rebbe saying we are in fact in Yemos Hamoshiach, it was said motzi 20 Kislev:
Attachment 1192
So where are the Tzaddikim ha'kamim miyad so they can witness and enjoy col yemos hamoshiach?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 10:24 AM   #133
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Ask better: YN, are we still in Golus?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 10:26 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Nu nu nu -- cite your reference.

Mr Finkelstein: As for the Rebbe saying we are in fact in Yemos Hamoshiach, it was said motzi 20 Kislev:
Attachment 1192
Did the Rebbe say what you brought before or after he said the following?---

Excerpts from chapter 10 of the checked and edited sicha of the Rebbe parshat Balak 5751 (emuna's translation):

" And concerning actuality - not withstanding the "shturem" in this thing in this last period within this year "The year where wonders are revealed" After we have seen the wonders whichtestify that this is "The year in which Moshiach is revealed " [Yalkut shimoni (ancient Jewish Midrash) prophecy, in reference to the first Gulf war] we see that there is a difficulty ("ess iz shver") to internalize the recognition and the feeling that we are standing on the threshold of Yamos Hamoshiach to the point where you would begin to live with Moshiach and Geula"
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Unread 11-13-2007, 11:48 AM   #135
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taka azoy efes or epes

from unser Rebbe's own words

Quote:
The Talmud states that the world exists for 6,000 years. The first 2,000 years were desolate; the second 2,000 years (beginning with Abraham) are devoted to Torah; and the last 2,000 years are the Messianic era.
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...oshiach/03.htm

Hence, we been there and done that already since 4000in factoid... so there is no stira at all.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 02:47 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
Did the Rebbe say what you brought before or after he said the following?---

Excerpts from chapter 10 of the checked and edited sicha of the Rebbe parshat Balak 5751 (emuna's translation):

" And concerning actuality - not withstanding the "shturem" in this thing in this last period within this year "The year where wonders are revealed" After we have seen the wonders whichtestify that this is "The year in which Moshiach is revealed " [Yalkut shimoni (ancient Jewish Midrash) prophecy, in reference to the first Gulf war] we see that there is a difficulty ("ess iz shver") to internalize the recognition and the feeling that we are standing on the threshold of Yamos Hamoshiach to the point where you would begin to live with Moshiach and Geula"
You have the dates right in front of you.

Balak 5751: "we are standing on the threshold of yemos hamoshiach"
10 Kislev 5752: "the days of Moshiach, in which we are found"
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Unread 11-13-2007, 04:24 PM   #137
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B"H


I was told that the Rebbe said on a Purim a few years after accepting the Nessius (leadership) on Yud Shevat 5710 - 'nishmaso bi' (I.e. his soul is within me) about his father in law, the Previous Rebbe of blessed memory. According to this, would it be possible to say that the Rebbe's soul has enclothed itself in someone else in our generation now, or must we say that the Rebbe will return in his own previous body, to lead us to the complete and final redemption be'H?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 05:35 PM   #138
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B"H


I was told that the Rebbe said on a Purim a few years after accepting the Nessius (leadership) on Yud Shevat 5710 - 'nishmaso bi' (I.e. his soul is within me) about his father in law, the Previous Rebbe of blessed memory. According to this, would it be possible to say that the Rebbe's soul has enclothed itself in someone else in our generation now, or must we say that the Rebbe will return in his own previous body, to lead us to the complete and final redemption be'H?
The Rebbe teaches in LS 13 and 35 that Dovid HaMelech can't be Moshiach because according to the Rambam, Moshiach must begin peulos of Moshiach and bring the geula before his resurrection. In other words, the earliest resurrection for anyone (even for the greatest Tzaddikim) cannot be before Moshiach is fully revealed (I think this means we are not standing on the threshold of geula but are crossing over out of golus and into geula). And the same goes for any Tzaddik. We are in golus. No tzaddikim have been resurrected yet. Moshiach - a soul in a body - needs to take us out of golus at which point we'll see "ha'kamim miyad". Bimheira b'yameinu! May it be now!

However, if I'm understanding emuna57 correctly, he holds that if someone began peulos in the dor of geula, and then passed away before bringing the complete geula, then his resurrection can be the first part of the complete geula. In other words, it seems that emuna57 holds that MIYAD can mean "the first thing" or maybe "simultaneous". But I think the problem with this is that there seem to be no sources which say that the word MIYAD can mean this. MIYAD literally means "MI-YAD" - "from the hand", not "with the hand or before the hand".
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Unread 11-13-2007, 06:21 PM   #139
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Freidicker Rebbe

Mr. Finkelstein:

How does all of this shake out with the fact (not the "interpretation" or "hergesh" or pilpul, etc.) that Rebbe continued to refer to his father-in-law as the Moshiach of the generation after Yud Shvat 5710.

Either the Rebbe holds that "Moshiach from the living" applies to the FR after histalkus, or that Moshiach can come min hameisayah. Take your pick.

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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:00 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Mr. Finkelstein:

How does all of this shake out with the fact (not the "interpretation" or "hergesh" or pilpul, etc.) that Rebbe continued to refer to his father-in-law as the Moshiach of the generation after Yud Shvat 5710.

Either the Rebbe holds that "Moshiach from the living" applies to the FR after histalkus, or that Moshiach can come min hameisayah. Take your pick.

Attachment 1195
The same way the Rebbe refers to Moshe Rebbeinu here as Moshiach Tzdikeinu, i.e. through gilgul. This is what I think.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:18 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
The same way the Rebbe refers to Moshe Rebbeinu here as Moshiach Tzdikeinu, i.e. through gilgul. This is what I think.
1) Ishpashtusa d'Moshe is ishpastusa, not gilgul.
2) So the Rebbe was hinting for 40 years that some baby born in the year 5710 was the Nosi Hador, bearing the FR's neshoma?! Oy--more chassidus on the double!

Again, let me caution against drawing premature conclusions.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:21 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
1) Ishpashtusa d'Moshe is ishpastusa, not gilgul.
2) So the Rebbe was hinting for 40 years that some baby born in the year 5710 was the Nosi Hador, bearing the FR's neshoma?! Oy--more chassidus on the double!

Again, let me caution against drawing premature conclusions.
Ok. I meant ibur instead of gilgul.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:43 PM   #143
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Ok. I meant ibur instead of gilgul.
Now you're poshut making things up.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:53 PM   #144
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Post Life of a tzaddik, death of a tzaddik

I highly recommend the following sicha, Yud Shvat 5726. It gives quite a clear picture of the Rebbe's description of what happened on Yud Shvat, and thus impacts the whole discussion of "min meisayah" v'chuleh.

Sicha_YudShvat_5726.pdf

(online here)
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:57 PM   #145
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Now you're poshut making things up.
I don't understand what you're saying. What does ispashtusa mean? Isn't it in the category of gilgul? Like the Rebbe says in LS 13 and 35 that David HaMelech's neshama will be enclothed in Moshiach and the same with Moshe Rebbeinu's neshama.
So just like the Rebbe calls Moshe Moshiach as it says "Moshe goel rishon v'goel acharon", so too does he call the FR Moshiach. And this is even how the Mishichistin understand it. Read the intro to the book V'hu Yigaleinu and you'll see that this is exactly how they understand these statements the Rebbe made about the FR.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 08:58 PM   #146
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I highly recommend the following sicha, Yud Shvat 5726. It gives quite a clear picture of the Rebbe's description of what happened on Yud Shvat, and thus impacts the whole discussion of "min meisayah" v'chuleh.

Sicha_YudShvat_5726.pdf (online here)


P.S. Gilgul is not ispashtusa d'Moshe.
Quote:
LS 37:100
ח. דער ענין הנ"ל פון "תפלה למשה" שטייט נאָכמער בהדגשה ובגילוי בדורנו זה — ווען מ'האָט דעם כח פון די תפלות וברכות און עבודה פון רבותינו נשיאינו, אתפשטותא דמשה בכל דרא ודרא, ביז כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר נשיא דורנו, אתפשטותא דמשה שבדורנו,
ובפרט ווען מ'שטייט לאחרי ארבעים שנה מהסתלקות הילולא שלו (בשנת תש"י), ווען "נתן ה' לכם לב לדעת ועינים לראות ואזנים לשמוע", קאי איניש אדעתא דרבי',
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:34 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
I highly recommend the following sicha, Yud Shvat 5726. It gives quite a clear picture of the Rebbe's description of what happened on Yud Shvat, and thus impacts the whole discussion of "min meisayah" v'chuleh.

Attachment 1198 (online here)


P.S. Gilgul is not ispashtusa d'Moshe.
It's long and I don't have the yishuv hadaas to learn this now. Even though it appears that he's saying that the FR did not have any misa, I know that he still referred to him as zecher tzadik livracha nishmaso b'gan eden zechuso yagein aleinu 99% of the time. And a couple times in 5710-11 in a state of hisorerus he referred to him as shlit"a. But so many more times he used the terms for someone who was nistaleik.

The Chumash uses the term "misa" for Moshe Rebbeinu's passing and for Dovid HaMelech's passing and even for Yaakov Avinu's passing (except for one posuk which omits the word "misa" and instead uses "g'via").

I am not sure what you are trying to tell me. Are you trying to tell me that we can say shlit"a on the Rebbe? That he did not pass? That all of our discussions so far are irrelevant because the difference between the Rebbe and Dovid HaMelech and Moshe Rebbeinu is that the Rebbe didn't die whereas Dovid and Moshe did? That halacha doesn't matter here?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:47 PM   #148
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When you do have the yishuv hada'as you should take the opportunity to learn the sicha. It's very geshmak.

To paraphrase R' Mordechai Eliyahu, shlita: don't learn what the Chassidim say, learn what the Rebbe said. Vda"l.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:49 PM   #149
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My translation?
I must have had a senior moment. I see that you quoted it. And you did not translate it.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 11:28 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
I highly recommend the following sicha, Yud Shvat 5726. It gives quite a clear picture of the Rebbe's description of what happened on Yud Shvat, and thus impacts the whole discussion of "min meisayah" v'chuleh.

Attachment 1198 (online here)
And after you do that, I highly reccomend the following article by R' Leibel Altein, where he clarifies this sicha, and negates several wrong understandings of that sicha...
http://haoros.com/archive/?kovetz=916&cat=4&haoro=2
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