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Unread 07-10-2002, 11:53 PM   #101
rebyoel
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No, you don't have to duck. The only thing I was trying to prove here is that even according to the Rebbe's shitah it is (at least)not impossible. v'es vohav besufah.
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Unread 07-11-2002, 12:36 AM   #102
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So maybe we should all be up front with our agendas and save disk space and bandwidth
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Unread 07-15-2002, 02:17 AM   #103
Torah613
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Behemshech to the discussion about vehu yigolainu - I am attaching a letter that i received from someone that got it from someone else who got etc. - you get the picture!

Link - http://www.chabadtalk.com/images/vehuyigaleinu.gif
Attached Files
File Type: doc vehuyigaleinu.doc (31.5 KB, 280 views)
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Unread 07-18-2002, 02:42 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid post #89
BTW, did you ever see a yichidus with R' Chaim Gutnick where this zochu and the Rambam came up ?? Maybe I should post it ?
Just saw a yechiddus (from 5727) that discusses this issue - printed in Tzaddik Lemelech" #6. Is this what you and Rebyoel were referring to?
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Unread 07-18-2002, 02:45 PM   #105
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Yes, but CG's Yechidus'n (like GB's) are not considered reliable.
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Unread 07-18-2002, 05:45 PM   #106
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Yes, that's the yechidus I was referring to. Two interesting inyonim: That chezkas moshiach yochuf ki'pshutoi, and Zochu/Lo Zochu and how it fits with the Rambam.

Would you like to summarize and maybe explain?

Rebayzl: not considered reliable by who and on what basis?
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Unread 07-18-2002, 06:01 PM   #107
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Kaed'ye umforsom that he is not relieble.
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Unread 07-18-2002, 06:05 PM   #108
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So I have heard, twice!. But for what reason? He has his own agenda? What is it?
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Unread 07-18-2002, 06:09 PM   #109
masbir
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I dont know why, we are telling you what we know and handing down to you, do with the info. as you wish.
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Unread 07-18-2002, 06:11 PM   #110
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So you want me to go and ask him if he is reliable? There must be a reason to such shmooa, something that happened in the past?
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Unread 11-30-2003, 03:57 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
BTW, did you ever see a yichidus with R' Chaim Gutnick where this zochu and the Rambam came up ?? Maybe I should post it ?
Could you? Toda mairosh!

Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
Behemshech to the discussion about vehu yigolainu - I am attaching a letter that i received from someone that got it from someone else who got etc. - you get the picture!

Link - http://www.chabadtalk.com/images/vehuyigaleinu.gif
I couldn't download it. Could you check to see if the link still works, and if not, repost the file? Toda mairosh gam lecha!
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Unread 11-30-2003, 08:51 AM   #112
Torah613
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The .doc file works.
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Unread 11-30-2003, 02:20 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
So you want me to go and ask him if he is reliable?
uh, sadly it's too late for that now
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Unread 11-30-2003, 02:30 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
So you want me to go and ask him if he is reliable? There must be a reason to such shmooa, something that happened in the past?
People who knew him very close say that he was very prone to exaggeratioins and a bit if a dreamer.
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Unread 01-18-2005, 01:13 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
The Radvaz (in shu"t - I don't have a Migdal Dovid) does bring (in the name of Ritvo) 2 techiyos, the first "smucho lebias moshiach veyizkoo lechol yemos hamoshiach" etc. - but who says this means BEFORE?
Just to note that the Munkatcher learns (Sefer Chayim V'sholom pg 157) that this means "BEFORE Bias Ben Dovid"
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Unread 01-18-2005, 06:17 AM   #116
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I did not read the whole thread, although I did scan most of it.

Regarding B'chezkas Moshiach, did anyone bring up the Sicho of 12 Tammuz 5727 (1967) .
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Unread 01-18-2005, 08:17 AM   #117
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boruch
Just to note that the Munkatcher learns (Sefer Chayim V'sholom pg 157) that this means "BEFORE Bias Ben Dovid"
I don't know what print you are using, but the old original print (maybe there is a new one?) has no p 157. Write the parsha, please. [Not that it proves anything anyway, kemuvan].
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Unread 11-09-2007, 12:03 PM   #118
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Mr. Finkelstein--have you seen this thread?
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Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
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Unread 11-09-2007, 01:19 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Mr. Finkelstein--have you seen this thread?
Yes I read through the whole thing a couple days ago.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 12:15 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
These are nice mareh mekmos - but to what? The Ritvo in Taanis [I'm using MRK edition] d"h kol says that one who eats 9th Av "ayn leatzmosov tchiya betchiyas hameisim" which will be bebinyan beis hamikdash for those who died in golus and waited for yeshoah (salvation) etc but they may still have tchiya on yom hadin "shehoo achar yemos hamoshiach".

The Ritvo in RH that there are those that were zoche to TH beguf venefesh in Gan Eden (!) etc., and there is TH "Beyemos hamoshiach letzadikei yisroel shemesu begolus" etc. - what exactly do these prove in regards to our discussion?

The Radvaz (in shu"t - I don't have a Migdal Dovid) does bring (in the name of Ritvo) 2 techiyos, the first "smucho lebias moshiach veyizkoo lechol yemos hamoshiach" etc. - but who says this means BEFORE?

In the book of Rabbi Schochet quoted (I think I have the 3rd edition) - note 15 - he writes "Resurrection of the dead is another of the 13 principles of faith ... It will occur after the redemption, the very last event of the messianic era ... Even so, there are various stages in the process of resurrection itself, with some individuals rising before all others. Moses and Ahron .. will be present in the early period, when the Beis Hamikdash will be re-established ..." ayin shom.

- Nothing about T"H BEFORE the beginning of the process, or the process begining with them, or even them rising at the very begining; also no mention of this in the Aruch Lener - quoted in Sdei Chemed Klalim mem:218 (from senhedrin 90, 92:a) ayin shom!

Maybe you can "ask" him about the Tono Devei Eliyohu - what is there exactly (I don't have it - so please quote)?

Lehoir: in the book p. 38 he writes that any time is a potential time for Moshiach, however, it doesn't mean that at the right time he will suddenly emerge from heaven to appear on earth "on the contrary, Moshiach is already on earth, a human being of great saintly status appearing and existing in every generation", ayin shom.

[Agav: looking through that book - I didn't find anything about "min misayo" or the Rashi - even though in his rebuttal to Berger I think he does allude to it ...I would hate to think the same phenomena as concerning Volpoe, since "chazaka al chover" etc...].

Bchol ofen, from LS v 35 he clearly refers to tzaddikim hakomim miyad [apparently a reference to Radvaz] after (beginning of) geulah, so even IF there is such a mokor, but apparently that isn't the Rebbe's understanding - like RebYid pointed out. [The answer he alludes to dosen't fit withthe haoro ("al korchoch tzorich lomar"!), and other problems, veten lechochom etc.].

[Lehoir gam from the "reshima" about TH in Igros v 2 p 71, 75 vduk (the radvaz is brought there note 18*). - I didn't see the Rebbe mention "Moshe vAharon imohem" - probably included with "zaddikim"].
After reading this, now I think that the word MIYAD in "kamim miyad" in LS 35 pg 206 note 6 could very well be relative to techilas peulas Moshiach or the beginning of Yemos HaMoshiach and not relative to the complete geula. If what I'm saying is correct, then since the Rebbe wrote that we have already entered Yemos HaMoshiach and the techilas peulas Moshiach have begun, then even right now the Tzaddikim can have TH miyad and the Rebbe could be among them and he could just continue the peulos Moshiach.

On the other hand, the word "b'vadai" in LS 35 pg. 206 note 6 seems to negate this because I can't see any way other way to understand it except to mean kol shkein, i.e. "before geula and b'vadai (kol shkein) before TH, gam (ALSO) that of the Tzaddikim ha'kamim miyad."

However, I need to ask emuna57 a question. In that other thread, he brought two sichos: one where the Rebbe said we are on the threshold of Yemos HaMoshiach and the other where he said we have already crossed the threshold and entered into the Yemos HaMoshiach. So, which one did he say first and how much time passed between these two sichos?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 12:53 AM   #121
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What is meant when we say the beginning of peulos Moshiach began already? Which peulos?
More: How can there be "peulos of Moshiach" without a living Moshiach?
That Moshiach, that does those peulos, is alive - and that is the point in that footnote, that the "live Moshiach" does his begins actions before the geulah, and for sure before TH (since TH is much later - even the tzaddikim one), therefore Moshiach cannot be someone who needs TH be be Moshiach.
All these chidushim with these חילוקים דקה מן הדקה, with all the pilpulim, is not the simple meaning in that footnote, and have no basis anywhere else.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:06 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
What is meant when we say the beginning of peulos Moshiach began already? Which peulos?
I don't know which ones. All I know is that the Rebbe said it.


Quote:
More: How can there be "peulos of Moshiach" without a living Moshiach?
I don't know but I'm not sure it's impossible.


Quote:
That Moshiach, that does those peulos, is alive - and that is the point in that footnote, that the "live Moshiach" does his begins actions before the geulah, and for sure before TH (since TH is much later - even the tzaddikim one),
He begins, we enter Yemos HaMoshiach, and then (after he already began) miyad he has TH and continues in a revealed way. This interpretation depends on the words "u'b'vadai kodem" not going on the TH of the Tzaddikim and not meaning "kol shkein".

However, the sources for "tzaddikim ha'kamim miyad" that you brought in this thread say that this means they will rise immediately at the beginning of Yemos HaMoshiach so that they can witness all of the Yemos HaMoshiach. Ay, but if Yemos HaMoshiach had already begun 16 years ago, we should have already seen some TH of Tzaddikim. But where are these tzaddikim? Therefore, we must say, that the Yemos HaMoshiach these sources are speaking about mean something other than the Yemos HaMoshiach that the Rebbe said has already begun. It must mean when Moshiach starts to really "kick b-tt". And therefore, the earliest TH is from that point. And since we haven't gotten to that point yet, we learn that Moshiach cannot come from those who have had an histalkus, even if they had begun some peulos Moshiach before their histalkus.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:17 AM   #123
Torah613
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Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
He begins, we enter Yemos HaMoshiach, and then (after he already began) miyad he has TH and continues in a revealed way.
This sentence makes sense to you? You are not saying 1) At what point he died, 2) What is meant by that vague term ימות המשיח, which can have definitions from one extreme to another, depending on context etc.
Quote:
This interpretation depends on the words "u'b'vadai kodem" not going on the TH of the Tzaddikim
??? Talk about parsing sentences!
Quote:
and not meaning "kol shkein".
???
Quote:

However, the sources for "tzaddikim ha'kamim miyad" that you brought in this thread say that this means they will rise immediately at the beginning of Yemos HaMoshiach so that they can witness all of the Yemos HaMoshiach. Ay, but if Yemos HaMoshiach had already begun 16 years ago, we should have already seen some TH of Tzaddikim. But where are these tzaddikim? Therefore, we must say, that the Yemos HaMoshiach these sources are speaking about mean something other than the Yemos HaMoshiach that the Rebbe said has already begun. It must mean when Moshiach starts to really "kick b-tt". And therefore, the earliest TH is from that point. And since we haven't gotten to that point yet, we learn that Moshiach cannot come from those who have had an histalkus, even if they had begun some peulos Moshiach before their histalkus.
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:27 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
This sentence makes sense to you?
It makes sense to me.


Quote:
You are not saying 1) At what point he died,
He died after he started peulos and after Yemos haMoshiach began.

Quote:
2) What is meant by that vague term ימות המשיח, which can have definitions from one extreme to another, depending on context etc.
I have no idea what the Rebbe meant in that sicha that we have entered Yemos HaMoshiach.

Quote:
??? Talk about parsing sentences!???
Yes, I know. It's a real stretch.

The bottom line as I see it so far, is that Rivta and Radvaz who are the sources for a "miyad TH" for Tzaddikim seem to say, according to your translation, that these special Tzaddikim will witness all the days of Moshiach. Since none of these Tzaddikim have come back into society yet, this proves that we haven't begun the Yemos haMoshiach that Ritva and Radvaz were talking about, no?
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Unread 11-13-2007, 09:38 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
The bottom line as I see it so far, is that Rivta and Radvaz who are the sources for a "miyad TH" for Tzaddikim seem to say, according to your translation,
My translation?
Quote:
that these special Tzaddikim will witness all the days of Moshiach.
...which also needs definition what is meant by that.
Quote:
Since none of these Tzaddikim have come back into society yet, this proves that we haven't begun the Yemos haMoshiach that Ritva and Radvaz were talking about, no?
That is for sure.
Also a data point, if you wish: Several short weeks before 27 Adar, the Rebbe envisioned TH (any stage) not happening for quite a while...
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