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Unread 05-24-2006, 02:09 PM   #176
Frumkite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
1) It wasn't only once. It happened on the afternoon of 14 Iyyar, 5751 during dollars in 770 & again later that evening by Maariv on 15 Iyyar. Both are on WLCC video; I have the video, and it's available at WLCC. (I heard that it also happened on Shabbos once but can't confirm that.)

Why it didn't continue? IMHO, my take on this is the following: By dollars was the very first time the Rebbe acknowledged this so openly. The very next time the Rebbe came out, by Maariv, one would have expected 770 to be full, bursting at the seems, to witness this phenomena. It was not. Maybe the Rebbe re-appraised the situation & felt the time was not yet ripe - that the people were not yet ready.

2) "What the Rebbe meant coming out after 27 Adar?" I think it's obvious - the main thing was to try to lay to rest any sofaik regarding Yechi. Unfortunately, others had other plans.

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Thanks for answering for T613.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 02:23 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
1) It wasn't only once. It happened on the afternoon of 14 Iyyar, 5751 during dollars in 770 & again later that evening by Maariv on 15 Iyyar. Both are on WLCC video; I have the video, and it's available at WLCC. (I heard that it also happened on Shabbos once but can't confirm that.)

Why it didn't continue? IMHO, my take on this is the following: By dollars was the very first time the Rebbe acknowledged this so openly. The very next time the Rebbe came out, by Maariv, one would have expected 770 to be full, bursting at the seems, to witness this phenomena. It was not. Maybe the Rebbe re-appraised the situation & felt the time was not yet ripe - that the people were not yet ready.
Before you give us your take on the matter, find out the history...
Quote:

2) "What the Rebbe meant coming out after 27 Adar?" I think it's obvious - the main thing was to try to lay to rest any sofaik regarding Yechi. Unfortunately, others had other plans.
Nu nu...what is obvious to you is not obvious to others. About as much value as your "take" on things...
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Unread 05-24-2006, 04:06 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Why, who is the Guadaluara Rabbi?
See post #55.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 06:38 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Before you give us your take on the matter, find out the history...Nu nu...what is obvious to you is not obvious to others. About as much value as your "take" on things...
"value" is sometimes in the eye (and mind) of the beholder; Dismissive one liners don't amount to any value; IMNHO, Olenskys theory resonates.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 06:56 PM   #180
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Sure, I could have predicted that before his post was ever written...
And why does a one line theory deserve more than a one line dismissal?
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Unread 05-24-2006, 09:04 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
Complete fulfillment of the requirements set forth in the Laws of Kings 11:4.
Anyone with a patrilineal descent from King David could very likely be Moshiach, especially in this day and age. The consequences of denying Moshiach are very serious including death of oneself or even worse, death of a family member. Everyone seems to think this is a joke but it is a very serious matter. The denial of a prophet, including Moshaich, may result in death at the hand of HaShem. I suspect that the reason no one takes this seriously is that most of us have not seen real miracles in lifetime so we doubt that they will occur.
Hello DW.
First, how does one prove without any doubt that he has a patrilineal descent of David ha'meleck? Second, although this is a serious matter I am of the "opinion" that all humanity is under a blanket of mercy because of all the false messiahs that have come and gone. If great Torah scholars scratch their heads in bewilderment how much more the average joe? I think haShem and his anointed will act merciful towards this messianic confusion. Moshiach has a great love for all people and wishes none to die over religious ideologies. Moshiach will not have an ego where he must be accepted by Jew or gentile. If you believe he is Moshiach, well and good; If you don't believe he is Moshiach, this is ok as well. Moshiach is but a humble servant who carries out haShem will and is only a fellow co-worker with you to transform the heaven and earth in righteousness. HaShem's work will be done regardless what anyone believes.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:24 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezman
Moshiach is but a humble servant who carries out haShem will and is only a fellow co-worker with you to transform the heaven and earth in righteousness.
????????????????????????!!!????????????????????
A co-worker?! Would you call a king your co-worker? Melech HaMoshiach is the king!!! Not a co-worker! Moshiach is much greater than us little nothings!!!
Melech HaMoshiach is our leader, showing us how to make this place a Dirah BiTachtonim... if he was a co-worker we'd already have the ultimate Geula!
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:34 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezman
Hello DW.
First, how does one prove without any doubt that he has a patrilineal descent of David ha'meleck? Second, although this is a serious matter I am of the "opinion" that all humanity is under a blanket of mercy because of all the false messiahs that have come and gone. If great Torah scholars scratch their heads in bewilderment how much more the average joe? I think haShem and his anointed will act merciful towards this messianic confusion. Moshiach has a great love for all people and wishes none to die over religious ideologies. Moshiach will not have an ego where he must be accepted by Jew or gentile. If you believe he is Moshiach, well and good; If you don't believe he is Moshiach, this is ok as well. Moshiach is but a humble servant who carries out haShem will and is only a fellow co-worker with you to transform the heaven and earth in righteousness. HaShem's work will be done regardless what anyone believes.
Hi Rez:
Actually, I don't believe that it is a question of proof of lineage, though that is a significant consideration. The reason is this. There are two possibilities. The first is that we were simply given this information (that he would be a patrilineal descendant of King David) even though we will never know the pedigree because HaShem knows. A much more common belief, and the one to which I subscribe, is that we will actually have a verifiable pedigree which will be evidence to be considered by those who seek to identify Moshiach. Can any pedigree be absolutely certain? No, because there is no way to know of extramarital relations for example. However, what we have found is that there are a very few families in the world who have a person to person patrilineal line from King David that has been maintained first by the government of Israel, then the government of Babylon, then various European governments. They were maintained because they were looking for Moshiach.

In a fascinating turn of events, we discovered that several different lines, that did not have a common ancestor for thousands of years, are carrying very close genetic markers. Is any of this conclusive evidence? No, but it is the first thing I would examine in looking for a Moshiach ben David. Why is that? Here is why.

Since we know that Moshiach will be a patrilineal descendant of King David, there is good reason to believe that this will be one identifying feature of Moshiach. There are the two possibilities mentioned above. That HaShem simply told us this not so we could identify him, but just so we would know. The more common view, and the reason these records were kept so meticulously, is that this is to be one of the ways we confirm the identity of Moshiach.

I agree with what you say that Moshiach will not care whether anyone believes he is Moshiach. It isn't necessary that he prove himself. However, there will be those who, out of jealousy and hatred will simply set out to attack him where he has done nothing to initiate the assault. They will do so by constantly attempting to discredit him either because he has shown them an error in their thinking or because, he challenges their beliefs. Or more simply, they are jealous. These are the ones who fall into the admonition concerning the rejection of prophets.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:38 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Sure, I could have predicted that before his post was ever written...
And why does a one line theory deserve more than a one line dismissal?
Actually, there are 14 lines to the Olensky theorum, including specific facts and analysis.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:43 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
Hi Rez:
Actually....
Another (false) prophecy.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:44 PM   #186
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I hope none of the suggestions said here were seriously stated, unless the name was that of the Nasi HaDor.
And if it wasn't seriously stated, like mine (which I seriously regret writing) I don't think it should be posted, it's making the Moshiach issue into one of mockery.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:58 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by why
I hope none of the suggestions said here were seriously stated, unless the name was that of the Nasi HaDor.
And if it wasn't seriously stated, like mine (which I seriously regret writing) I don't think it should be posted, it's making the Moshiach issue into one of mockery.
Even if there was a spirit of frivolity,look at the lack of enthusiasm and belief as to any one of the "candidates". I think it serves one purpose.
Its easy to knock and make fun of Mists after GT, but look at the void if the Rebbe is taken out of the consideration for M.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 12:33 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Another (false) prophecy.
If you believe that DW has given a prophecy here, I'll place it in my files and we will one day see whether or not it is true. BUT to claim it is a false utterance at this time is rather jumping the gun. For it to be false the moshiah, who ever he may be will have to declair it false.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 01:11 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Even if there was a spirit of frivolity,look at the lack of enthusiasm and belief as to any one of the "candidates". I think it serves one purpose.
Its easy to knock and make fun of Mists after GT, but look at the void if the Rebbe is taken out of the consideration for M.
  • R' Dovid Abuchadsera (the Baba Sali's grandson who resides in the Galil where thousands of chassidim, Litvaks & sephardim visit him every week from all over the world) is not with the definition of a "void."
  • The absence of a "worthy" candidate is not proof against LS 35:206 (where the Rebbe said that M cannot come through techiat hameitim).
  • The breslov tradition is davka that M will be a completely unexpected candidate.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 05:29 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Another (false) prophecy.
Can't you tell a prophecy from an opinion? You must have been absent on eschatological studies day. But if it were prophecy, which it is not, are you sure you are qualified to assess its veracity given that just last week you did not know that Moshiach will be a patrilineal descendant of King David; that is, until you consulted someone you know and respect.
Quote:
Its easy to knock and make fun of Mists after GT, but look at the void if the Rebbe is taken out of the consideration for M.
Wouldn't it be better to have a temporary void in the analysis if the Rebbe is taken out of the equation than to give the impression that one has a permanant void between one's ears if he is not taken out?

Last edited by DW Duke; 05-25-2006 at 11:28 AM.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 01:33 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
  • R' Dovid Abuchadsera (the Baba Sali's grandson who resides in the Galil where thousands of chassidim, Litvaks & sephardim visit him every week from all over the world) is not with the definition of a "void."
  • The absence of a "worthy" candidate is not proof against LS 35:206 (where the Rebbe said that M cannot come through techiat hameitim).
  • The breslov tradition is davka that M will be a completely unexpected candidate.
1) When Meir Abesera came to his relative (uncle?), the Baba Sali, & asked him to be his Rebbe, the Baba Sali told him that the Rebbe is to be his Rebbe.

2) If one holds that "Yaakov lo mais" & Moshe lo mais," i.e., that the Rebbe didn't die, then point #2 is irrelevant.

3) Since so many people doubt the Rebbe is Moshiach, even on CT, and especially after Gimmel Tamuz, then the Rebbe would fit "a completely unexpected candidate."

Dovid
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Unread 05-25-2006, 01:40 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
3) Since so many people doubt the Rebbe is Moshiach, even on CT, and especially after Gimmel Tamuz, then the Rebbe would fit "a completely unexpected candidate."
That is classic.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 03:41 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
1) When Meir Abesera came to his relative (uncle?), the Baba Sali, & asked him to be his Rebbe, the Baba Sali told him that the Rebbe is to be his Rebbe.

2) If one holds that "Yaakov lo mais" & Moshe lo mais," i.e., that the Rebbe didn't die, then point #2 is irrelevant.

3) Since so many people doubt the Rebbe is Moshiach, even on CT, and especially after Gimmel Tamuz, then the Rebbe would fit "a completely unexpected candidate."

Dovid
  1. Therefore what, the Baba Sali's respect for the fact that his relative connected with Yahadut through the Rebbe means that the Baba Sali is below the Rebbe and that the Baba Sali's grandson is even further below the Rebbe??
  2. That brings back a memory of someone in ch who answers his phone, "yechi hamelech, I'm holding "lo meis," who's calling? Unfortunately, I didn't know about LS35 then or I could have pointed out to him that the sicha was davka about Dovid Hamelech, on whom we say, chai v'kayam, and yet Dovid is disqualified since Dovid would still need techiat hameitim to return, meaning that chai meant his haspha on the world, not his body.
  3. See this more complete description of R' Nachman's view according to the megilat setarim:
Quote:
For those expecting a wrathful Messiah who will wreak vengeance on the nations of the world - or a rabbinic Messiah with a white beard - the Messiah of the scroll will come as a disappointment.

Rebbe Nachman, on that carriage ride long ago, predicted, instead, a Messiah whose appearance and identity would surprise the world: a Messiah who would begin his messianic mission as a young child. The scroll describes the Messiah's marriage, and his ascension to the throne as emperor while a teenager. The Messiah, according to the scroll, will eventually conquer the world without firing a single shot: his war will be a spiritual battle with a tidal wave of atheism that will have engulfed the world.

Rabbi Nachman's messianic vision includes no apocalypse and no mass destruction of evildoers. The Messiah's power will emanate from his genius for healing illness through new kinds of medicines he will synthesize from various compounds, and from his profound originality in the field of music: The Messiah will compose melodies with the power to arouse tremendous yearning and hunger for God. Rabbi Nachman's Messiah is universal: He comes not just to the Jews, but to all nations, and for the good of the whole world.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fai..._breslov_.html
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Unread 05-25-2006, 03:59 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
[*]See this more complete description of R' Nachman's view according to the megilat setarim:[/list]


I know someone who is a writer for the Breslov Research Institute and he doesn't even know what's in Megilat Setarim. I once asked him about it and he told me that he never saw it even though another big person at BRI has learned it. So, we can't really trust what Failed Messiah said about this book. I think only a small handful of Breslover have ever seen it.

I've never seen anything like this in Rebbe Nachman's writings. I think Rebbe Nachman held that Moshiach would be a rabbi with a beard. He did hold that Moshiach will eventually redeem the world, just like we all do.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 04:08 PM   #195
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Rebbe Nachman had great promise for his young son and mourned him very deeply. He then spoke of the ``Master of the Field,'' whose task it is to correct all souls.15 He also spoke at length about the Messiah, and Rabbi Nathan wrote the discussion in a Hidden Scroll (Megilas Sesarim) in a cryptic abbreviated form. Rebbe Nachman instructed that this never be revealed, but a copy is known to exist among the Breslover Chassidim. During this mournful summer, Rebbe Nachman began telling his tales, beginning with the story of the Lost Princess.

From: http://www.breslov.org/rnachman.html

Almost nobody has ever seen this sefer.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 04:22 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkivaYitzhak
So, we can't really trust what Failed Messiah said about this book.
For sure.

But, in this case, it's a MO professor at Bar Ilan who's behind this publication, not the kofer-webmaster.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 05:50 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
2) If one holds that "Yaakov lo mais" & Moshe lo mais," i.e., that the Rebbe didn't die, then point #2 is irrelevant.
The best part of this post is the "i.e.". ...
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Unread 05-25-2006, 06:06 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
The best part of this post is the "i.e.". ...
HU Posek Al atzma; IMO, Olensky is saying that since the Rebbe used both "lo Mes" examples in reference to the Pr, then Hu Posek etc.
I agree that it is the Best part.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 06:30 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
HU Posek Al atzma; IMO, Olensky is saying that since the Rebbe used both "lo Mes" examples in reference to the Pr, then Hu Posek etc.
I agree that it is the Best part.
Are you the one clearing the aisle?
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Unread 05-25-2006, 07:30 PM   #200
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[quote=why]
????????????????????????!!!????????????????????

A co-worker?! Would you call a king your co-worker? Melech HaMoshiach is the king!!! Not a co-worker! Moshiach is much greater than us little nothings!!!

Hello Why,
A father who dearly loves his sons or daugters includes them in his work. He intrusts them with all that he has. Having been created in G-d's image,"tslemo" we have the desire and ability to become co-workers with haShem as well as Moshiach. If the Rebbe is Moshiach didn't he send out many shlichim to every land of the Diaspora? Are these not co- workers with the Rebbe? Achi, never consider that you are "little" or "nothing" because you are the shadow of the living G-d.
b'ahav,
Rezman
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