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Unread 05-23-2006, 12:14 AM   #151
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
You're ignoring the ho'ra'ah of the Rebbe by comparing the identification of the Rebbe as M with something that's laudable but not incumbent on us all day long.

The Rebbe didn't just "note" that it's not a mitvah asei.
  • The Rebbe actively discouraged it, calling the yechi song "absurd" and stating that he should leave the room during it but that it wouldn't help.
  • Likewise with his active discouragement of it by threatening to cut all ties to k'far Chabad magazine if they so much as published that a lub should consider the rebbe to be M (let alone a non-lub).
As for your other quotes, most are misquotes (like "Hinai Menachem Moshiach" which never happened and "M is already appointed" which the rebbe said referred took place in a posuk in Tanach, not during the Rebbe's lifetime).

Finally, any hint that the a chassid may/should believe that his Rebbe is M (without identifying him) was only in effect till 3T, afterwhich LS 35:206 tells us that the neshama of M passes on to a living Jew.
If you are going to quote ancient histiry, then lets say the Rebbe was not Rebbe as in 1950 he kept saying he is not Rebbe.
The fact is, that Before GT in 5753-54, not ONE voice was heard in lubavitch that said that Rebbe is not Moshaich; Kfar Chabad even printed Yechi after GT, so are you saying they ignored the Rebbe for 2 years? Even Kehot printed that the Rebbe is M. Even Gutnick wrote that Rebbe is M. Tell us, did you have a picket sign set up in front of 770 then. Stop with the distortions.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 12:25 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezman
Moshiach is not a political office that one solicits a vote. I know you mean no harm, but really, this is very disrespectful to haShem and His anointed. Saul, Yisrael's first meleck had all the proper credentials but yet failed in his mission. However, David who was not counted among his 7 brothers and thought to be a mamzer until the age of 28 was chosen by G-d. You and I have no voice in who haShem chooses as Moshiach.
And if we have no voice then really we ought not speculate on things which belong to G-d alone.

Kol Tuv.
rezman
Perhaps you misunderstood my words. I have no intention of binding Hashem's hand ceviyochel. If I said who would be on the Samhedrin today if Moshaich came? is that disrespectful? If you think it is, then you should know tha R' Moshe Feinstiein ZTL, on eof the most humble of people, was quoted by his son in law at his levaya that he was concerned about having a pacemaker put in because he felt he would be ruah to sit in Sanhedrin.

Anyway, in truth, personally this is merely a hypothetical discussion as we already have an selected one (by Hashem) as stated by the Rebbe.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 12:38 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi_D
Please keep to the topic of the thread.

Other issues belong elsewhere. Do a search, and you'll find an appropriate thread, probably somewhere in the Controversy Forum.

Thanks.
You just shattered my illusiion because i was under the impresiion that T613 and Rabbi D were the same person; but that can't be because they were just talking to each other. or
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Unread 05-23-2006, 02:31 AM   #154
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Apologies to Rabbi D for going off-topic, but I just want to respond to these inaccuracies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
As for your other quotes, most are misquotes (like "Hinai Menachem Moshiach" which never happened...
"Since the promise of 'Awaken and sing, those who rest in the dust' [Techiyas HaMaisim - Resurrection of the Dead] will soon take place..., there will then be the revelation of the meaning of 'Menachem - Malka Moshichah (King Moshiach)!' "
(Erev Rosh Hashanah, 5744, Sefer Hisvaduyos - Sichos Kodesh)

"The Almighty's Geulah is actually brought about through His Shaliach, Moshiach Tzidkainu, with all eight names attributed to him. This includes also 'Menachem Sh'mo - His name is Menachem' [Gemora Sanhedrin 98b], in a way that 'One points with his finger and exclaims 'Hinai Menachem Moshiach Tzidkainu - Here is Menachem, our righteous Moshiach!' "
(Rosh Chodesh Menachem Av, 5749, Sefer Hisvaduyos - Sichos Kodesh)

BTW, I didn't read these somewhere, or have someone tell it it to me - I saw it printed in the original Seforim.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 07:17 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
You just shattered my illusiion because i was under the impresiion that T613 and Rabbi D were the same person; but that can't be because they were just talking to each other. or
Oy vey iz mir - Rabbi D, the game is up!
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Unread 05-23-2006, 10:03 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
If you are going to quote ancient histiry, then lets say the Rebbe was not Rebbe as in 1950 he kept saying he is not Rebbe.
The fact is, that Before GT in 5753-54, not ONE voice was heard in lubavitch that said that Rebbe is not Moshaich; Kfar Chabad even printed Yechi after GT, so are you saying they ignored the Rebbe for 2 years? Even Kehot printed that the Rebbe is M. Even Gutnick wrote that Rebbe is M. Tell us, did you have a picket sign set up in front of 770 then. Stop with the distortions.
You're putting up the actions of some chassidim against the statement from the Rebbe (that Yechi is "absurd")?

Anyway, why would anyone have said, "the Rebbe is not M?" before 3T?

Before 3T the neshama of M was vested in the Rebbe.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 06:00 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
As for your other quotes, most are misquotes (like "Hinai Menachem Moshiach" which never happened...
Frumkite, no response to my post #154? An apology maybe?

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Unread 05-23-2006, 08:50 PM   #158
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I am absolutely amazed and astounded that no one has suggested John Kennedy Jr. as MBD. After all, he was coming in the clouds in his demise and he can bounce right back like other deceased messiahs. There is, of course, the problem of his catholicism but what the hey, shuck and jive artists are everywhere. I am sure he can wiggle his way out of that one.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 08:53 PM   #159
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I can't beleive nobody here agrees about the Guadalajara Rebbe!

DW - just wondering, what 'proof' do you need to convince you that someone is Moshiach? What for a maybe Moshiach?
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Unread 05-23-2006, 09:12 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by why
I can't beleive nobody here agrees about the Guadalajara Rebbe!

DW - just wondering, what 'proof' do you need to convince you that someone is Moshiach?
Complete fulfillment of the requirements set forth in the Laws of Kings 11:4.

Quote:
What for a maybe Moshiach.
A "maybe" Moshiach will never convince me that he is Moshiach. However, I would be much more likely to consider one a candidate, as would any true Torah scholar, if he first produced a prestine (and reliable) pedigree showing that he is a patrilineal descendant of King David. Once that is done, I would take him very seriously. That is the reason I would never challenge one who produces such a pedigree unless it is clear that he is errant. Such a challenge is the height of stupidity. Anyone with a patrilineal descent from King David could very likely be Moshiach, especially in this day and age. The consequences of denying Moshiach are very serious including death of oneself or even worse, death of a family member. Everyone seems to think this is a joke but it is a very serious matter. The denial of a prophet, including Moshaich, may result in death at the hand of HaShem. I suspect that the reason no one takes this seriously is that most of us have not seen real miracles in lifetime so we doubt that they will occur .

If a fellow can't produce such a pedigree I will not reject him but I will look very closely at his actions and what he says. First, is what he says consistent with written Torah. Secondly, is it consistent with Oral Torah. If the answer to either question is in the negative, then the question is why. (No pun intended.) Once we get past that issue, then I would expect to see prophecy. I am not referring to vague ambiguous claims about an event that is to occur soon. I am referring to very specific events that only a fool could not recognize as prophecy. If he passed all of these tests then, I might consider him a potential candidate (not an actual candidate yet) for Moshiach. And I wouldn't give a twig's foot if he were a rabbi or an auto mechanic . I am interested in the identity of Moshiach not some man's idea of what Moshiach should be.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:04 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
I am absolutely amazed and astounded that no one has suggested John Kennedy Jr. as MBD. After all, he was coming in the clouds in his demise and he can bounce right back like other deceased messiahs. There is, of course, the problem of his catholicism but what the hey, shuck and jive artists are everywhere. I am sure he can wiggle his way out of that one.
Your sarcasm only reflects poorly on Dukeists, but not on real Moshichists.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:08 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
Complete fulfillment of the requirements set forth in the Laws of Kings 11:4.



A "maybe" Moshiach will never convince me that he is Moshiach. However, I would be much more likely to consider one a candidate, as would any true Torah scholar, if he first produced a prestine (and reliable) pedigree showing that he is a patrilineal descendant of King David. Once that is done, I would take him very seriously. That is the reason I would never challenge one who produces such a pedigree unless it is clear that he is errant. Such a challenge is the height of stupidity. Anyone with a patrilineal descent from King David could very likely be Moshiach, especially in this day and age. The consequences of denying Moshiach are very serious including death of oneself or even worse, death of a family member. Everyone seems to think this is a joke but it is a very serious matter. The denial of a prophet, including Moshaich, may result in death at the hand of HaShem. I suspect that the reason no one takes this seriously is that most of us have not seen real miracles in lifetime so we doubt that they will occur .

If a fellow can't produce such a pedigree I will not reject him but I will look very closely at his actions and what he says. First, is what he says consistent with written Torah. Secondly, is it consistent with Oral Torah. If the answer to either question is in the negative, then the question is why. (No pun intended.) Once we get past that issue, then I would expect to see prophecy. I am not referring to vague ambiguous claims about an event that is to occur soon. I am referring to very specific events that only a fool could not recognize as prophecy. If he passed all of these tests then, I might consider him a potential candidate (not an actual candidate yet) for Moshiach. And I wouldn't give a twig's foot if he were a rabbi or an auto mechanic . I am interested in the identity of Moshiach not some man's idea of what Moshiach should be.
Ah neyer maaseh; Now hie is threatening non Duke believers with death; the last Jew who did that was featured in a popular Mel Gibson movie lately. Och and vey
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:11 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
You're putting up the actions of some chassidim against the statement from the Rebbe (that Yechi is "absurd")?

Anyway, why would anyone have said, "the Rebbe is not M?" before 3T?

Before 3T the neshama of M was vested in the Rebbe.
Yechi was no longer "absurd" in 5753-4 as it became a regular event with the Rebbe encouraging it at the cost of great physical exertion.
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:17 PM   #164
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Quote:
Complete fulfillment of the requirements set forth in the Laws of Kings 11:4.
don't you know that hundreds of rabbonim signed a PSAK DIN that the rebbe is B"CHEZKAS MOSHIACH UNTIL MOSHIACH VADAY!!!
http://www.psakdin.net/en/
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:18 PM   #165
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Duke - 'consistant' with the Oral Torah...
This implies that he just know it well -or also keeps all the commandments?
Do you beleive that Moshiach might not be born religeous? Might not do everything Hashem sais? Do you think he'll know who he is, i.e., his mission?
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:21 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by why
I can't beleive nobody here agrees about the Guadalajara Rebbe!

DW - just wondering, what 'proof' do you need to convince you that someone is Moshiach? What for a maybe Moshiach?
Why, who is the Guadaluara Rabbi?
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Unread 05-23-2006, 11:21 PM   #167
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b"h
Quote:
You and I have no voice in who haShem chooses as Moshiach.
firstly, why does the rambam write all the halochos of who is moshiach?
secondly, what if the rebbe by whom is "shchinah medaberes mitoch grono, the shechinah speaks through his mouth revealed that the leader of the generation is the moshiach of the generation?
thirdly, in every generation the students believed that their rebbe is the moshiach of the generation!

b"h
Quote:
Before 3T the neshama of M was vested in the Rebbe.
and who are you to decide when the neshamah of m was vested in the rebbe and when it wasn't?

b"h
Quote:
calling the yechi song "absurd"
???!!! what were the exact words of the rebbe (in yiddish ofcourse)?

b"h
Quote:
was only in effect till 3T, afterwhich LS 35:206 tells us that the neshama of M passes on to a living Jew.
read http://chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=7060
and then let's hear what you have to say!
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Unread 05-24-2006, 12:22 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Yechi was no longer "absurd" in 5753-4 as it became a regular event with the Rebbe encouraging it at the cost of great physical exertion.
As the Rebbe said after he called Yechi absurd, he would get up and leave but it wouldn't stop the mishichistim, it would only cause Jews to stop gathering together.

Moreover, T613 & others mplied that the Rebbe did try to discourage it by refusing to allow the curtain to be opened if yechi was being sung. If he can tell us more about what was happening during those singing sessions, it would help.

Olensky - I haven't had a chance to look up your 2 quotes, but, I don't recall seeing them in "v'hu yigaleinu" and it would be surprising if those guys overlooked them.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 12:37 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
A "maybe" Moshiach will never convince me that he is Moshiach.
This is circular logic.

You won't accept Moshiach until there is "the complete fulfillment of the requirements set forth in Laws of Kings 11:4."

This obviously includes building the Bais HaMikdash, and the Ingathering of the Exiles.

When the one who is, in Rambam's words, B'chezkas Moshiach - presumed to be Moshiach, or in your words, a "maybe" Moshiach, would attempt to build the Bais HaMikdash, if everyone held like you, he wouldn't get close enough, he wouldn't get anyone to help, he wouldn't be able to tell the Jews to return to Israel, since nobody would accept him until he did these things. And he couldn't do these things unless he was accepted. Hence they would never happen.

Therefore it seems obvious that there would have to be a significant degree of acceptance prior to "the complete fulfillment of Laws of Kings 11:4."

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Unread 05-24-2006, 12:41 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
Therefore it seems obvious that there would have to be a significant degree of acceptance prior to "the complete fulfillment of Laws of Kings 11:4."

Dovid
One does not necessarily need to be identified as Moshiach to perform the Moshiach tasks. Everyone may believe one is Moshiach but unless he confirms it, how will they ever know for sure. Rambam is the one who established the test not me. Actually, "maybe Moshiach" is Why's term, not mine. But I think it adequately describes the situation.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 12:49 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Olensky - I haven't had a chance to look up your 2 quotes, but, I don't recall seeing them in "v'hu yigaleinu" and it would be surprising if those guys overlooked them.
The quotes can be found in the English edition, which was published later than the Hebrew edition.

I saw them in the original Seforim - Sichos Kodesh Hisvaduyos. They are out of print, so you would have to find someone who has a very extensive Chabad library to find them, if you don't believe the Seforim they are quoted in.

Also, try this link: http://www.moshiach.net/blind/ahwru/chap_1-1.htm
Quotes #12 & 13.

Dovid

Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
One does not necessarily need to be identified as Moshiach to perform the Moshiach tasks.
Again, if nobody accepted him, he wouldn't be able to fulfill these tasks, as they require the Jews to listen to him regarding the Building & Ingathering.

Dovid

Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
Rambam was obviously referring to death from any cause.
So says you.

Rambam could have used the word "mais - died." This would have been a more inclusive term, which would have included both a) "killed" & b) "died from natural causes."

Rambam chose to use the word "neherag - killed," a much more limiting & exclusive term, specifically excluding the concept of "died from natural causes."

When someone dies from a heart attack, G-d forbid, we don't say he was killed, we say he died. If someone says his uncle was killed, the implication is not that he died from illness or other natural causes, but, rather from "unusual" causes like a car accident, a gunshot, etc.

Again, instead of honestly discussing the issues & points, you are playing mental & verbal gymnastics to make your point & avoid the issues raised.

Dovid

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp
what's the point ? Where is the idea that we must all agree on who moshiach is for him to come ? Who cares who moshiach is ?
...In our present generation, great emphasis must be placed on belief in the coming of Moshiach and anything which relates to it."

(Shabbos Acharei, 5746, Hisvaduyos, unedited)

"The appointing of Dovid Malka Meshicha, has already taken place, as it is written [Tehillim 89:21] 'I have found My servant Dovid, with My holy oil I have anointed him.' The only thing that is necessary is the acceptance of his Kingship by the people."

(Shabbos Mishpatim, 5751, ch. 10)

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Unread 05-24-2006, 03:32 AM   #172
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Unread 05-24-2006, 08:23 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Moreover, T613 & others mplied that the Rebbe did try to discourage it by refusing to allow the curtain to be opened if yechi was being sung. If he can tell us more about what was happening during those singing sessions, it would help.
For sake of accuracy, I never said or implied that. I was referring to the time before 27 Adar.
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Unread 05-24-2006, 10:06 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Torah613
For sake of accuracy, I never said or implied that. I was referring to the time before 27 Adar.
Maybe I mixed you up with R' Friedman.

But I do remember you writing that someone should find out why it was only once (I guess before 27 Adar).

Anyway, can you explain what the Rebbe meant by coming out after 27 Adar?
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Unread 05-24-2006, 12:19 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
But I do remember you writing that someone should find out why it was only once (I guess before 27 Adar).

Anyway, can you explain what the Rebbe meant by coming out after 27 Adar?
1) It wasn't only once. It happened on the afternoon of 14 Iyyar, 5751 during dollars in 770 & again later that evening by Maariv on 15 Iyyar. Both are on WLCC video; I have the video, and it's available at WLCC. (I heard that it also happened on Shabbos once but can't confirm that.)

Why it didn't continue? IMHO, my take on this is the following: By dollars was the very first time the Rebbe acknowledged this so openly. The very next time the Rebbe came out, by Maariv, one would have expected 770 to be full, bursting at the seems, to witness this phenomena. It was not. Maybe the Rebbe re-appraised the situation & felt the time was not yet ripe - that the people were not yet ready.

2) "What the Rebbe meant coming out after 27 Adar?" I think it's obvious - the main thing was to try to lay to rest any sofaik regarding Yechi. Unfortunately, others had other plans.

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