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Unread 05-13-2006, 11:58 PM   #101
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
my point is that DO NOT TAKE THIS as a Mitzvah, IT IS NOT SOMEThing that has to be done.
if this is a mitzvah is Sheker b/c is not in the Rebbe's Torah
u know who Moshiach is? great! I hope u r right.Let Moshiach come
So explain in your opinion what the Rebbe meant when he said that the only avoda left is KPM? and this was after the famous "its not a mitzvah"; and you also have not answered my earlier post that the Rebbe could have easily said "issur gomur" and he didnt. Like Meshulam said, its not a mitzvah to be a mensch either.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:02 AM   #102
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
So explain in your opinion what the Rebbe meant when he said that the only avoda left is KPM? and this was after the famous "its not a mitzvah";
It was?
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:06 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Torah613
It was?
it wasnt?
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:11 AM   #104
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Tell me the date of the sicha you are referring to, and we shall figure it out.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:25 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Tell me the date of the sicha you are referring to, and we shall figure it out.
KPM was mentioned in IRC toldos/ vayetze 5752 if not also later; when was the its no mitzvoh said or written and where?
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:44 AM   #106
Torah613
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Adar 1 5752...very soon before the stroke.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 12:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Adar 1 5752...very soon before the stroke.
Where is it written?
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Unread 05-14-2006, 02:04 AM   #108
Torah613
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It is printed IIRC in one of the volumes of צדיק למלך, probably also in other places.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 08:39 AM   #109
Frumkite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Adar 1 5752...very soon before the stroke.
http://chassidusunlimited.tripod.com/teaching.html#a5

Quote:
Mar-Cheshvan, 5752:
On Shabbos Parshas Noach, Mar-Cheshvan 4, 5752, Chassidim started the farbrengen by singing the "Yechi... Melech HaMoshiach..." When they finished singing the Rebbe said:
"This is extremely absurd. Here a song is sung with such words, while I sit here at the table... The truth is that I really should get up and leave!...
"As for why I am not leaving - first of all, whether I do or I don't, it anyway would not help; and secondly, it would upset the goal of 'sheves achim gam yachad' ('brethren sit even together') - for if I leave others too will leave, and automatically this opportunity for 'brethren sit even together' would be lost. Everyone knows how important this is - as the Rashbi elaborates in the Zohar..."
***

Shvat, 5752:
To many who wrote letters to the Rebbe addressing him as "The Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach," the Rebbe replied:
"When he will arrive I will give this to him."
Adar I, 5752:
On 13 Adar I, 5752 (a scant 14 days before 27 Adar I), Neshei Women's Organization of New York sent the Rebbe a pamphlet by Rabbi Wolpo that they wanted to distribute, titled "Kabolas P'nei Moshiach Tzidkeinu ," which stated outright that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was King Moshiach. Immediately the Rebbe responded (with a copy to Vaad Agudas Chassidei Chabad):
"Urgent!
"I have already answered him that essays like this repel very many from learning Chassidus - the opposite of spreading the wellsprings to the outside!"
*
Just a few days before 27 Adar I, 5752, the Rebbe issued a handwritten answer to an individual (the facsimile was later released by the Rebbe's secretary, Rabbi Binyamin Klein):
"There is no obligation at all to search for who is Moshiach - but there is a positive commandment of the Torah to love each and every Jew and avoid divisiveness to the extreme, and obviously one should not intentionally incite the opposite!"
*
After 27 Adar I, 5752, the Rebbe was no longer able to answer by speaking or writing, but he was still able to answer by shaking his head "Yes" or "No." The following are some of his answers in this period:

Iyar, 5752:
In Iyar, 5752, a Shliach in California, Rabbi Dovid Aliezri, sent the Rebbe a letter with three questions: 1) Should activities pertaining to Moshiach be separate, but on a par with, the Chabad House's other activities? Or are they meant to be the main stress of all the activities? 2) Is necessary to indicate who is Moshiach? 3) Should it be publicized that our period is the period of Moshiach's coming? The letter was read by the Rebbe's secretary, Rabbi Groner, and the Rebbe responded by shaking his head:
To the first part of the first question (Should activities pertaining to Moshiach be separate, but on a par with, the Chabad House's other activities?) the Rebbe shook his head to indicate "No."
To the second part of the first question (Or are they meant to be the main stress of all the activities?) he shook his head twice to indicate "Yes! "
To the second question (Is necessary to indicate who is Moshiach?) the Rebbe shook his head vigorously to indicate "No!"
To the third question (Should it be publicized that our period is the period of Moshiach's coming?) he shook his head "Yes."
*
At about the same time as this Rabbi Yoseph Yitzchak Gutnik asked the Rebbe if he should fund projects of the "International Campaign to Bring Moshiach" which was publicizing that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was King Moshiach.
The Rebbe shook his head "No!"
*
Sivan, 5752:
During Sefiras Ha'omer, 5752, Rabbis Yitzchak Dovid Groner and Chaim Gutnik, from Australia, traveled through a number of countries to publicize that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was presumed to be Moshiach. Their journey's goal was to have as many Chabad Rabbonim as possible gather in Crown Heights on the holiday of Shevuos for meetings and discussions, and afterwards to hold a general meeting of all Anash in 770.
At their discussion sessions these Rabbis decided to publicize a program with a number of propositions, which they planed read in public in 770. Before releasing this program, these Rabbis (together with Rabbi Chanzin and others) asked Rabbi Groner to read it to the Rebbe.
Rabbi Groner reported back to them that to every point the Rebbe shook his head affirmatively, but when he read the proposition about declaring the Rebbe the "presumed Moshiach" the Rebbe's reaction was different:
The Rebbe shook his head very strongly "No!"
There were also many answers like these that the Rebbe to gave to Agudas Chassidei Chabad (for example in Teves, 5753), and to many others as well.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 10:43 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Ok there is no obligation " TO SEARCH". but if one already is at "Motzosi Dovid Avdi" then it does not say it can not be publicized, only not to incite. (That is assuming this note is authentic; Did Rabbi Groner confirm it? then I would believe it. Otherwise, I would put this "note" along with my worthless Gutnick stock certificates and options together with all sorts of comments by one of the secretaries about the Rebbe's alleged comments VDL)
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Unread 05-14-2006, 01:54 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Ok there is no obligation " TO SEARCH". but if one already is at "Motzosi Dovid Avdi" then it does not say it can not be publicized, only not to incite.
All you got out of all those quotes from the Rebbe is that there's no need to search?

The Rebbe wasn't talking to people who were searching for the "best candidate."

He was talking davka to Lubs for whom there was no question that the Rebbe was the best candidate.

And his message to those people was, "Do not say, 'the Rebbe is M.'"
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Unread 05-14-2006, 02:25 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
(That is assuming this note is authentic; Did Rabbi Groner confirm it? then I would believe it. Otherwise, I would put this "note" along with my worthless Gutnick stock certificates and options together with all sorts of comments by one of the secretaries about the Rebbe's alleged comments VDL)
The copy of the Rebbe's actual handwriting is printed in Tzaddik Lemelech # 7.
First time I have heard someone doubt the authenticity of the actual tzetel (leaving aside פרשנות).
Nu nu...
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Unread 05-14-2006, 06:56 PM   #113
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one Rebbe - one Moshiach

Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Gezetz, zeit mir mochel and lighten up. Amen to your post, but you still have not explained why it not shtus dekedusha?
It seems you don’t have a clear understanding what שטות דקדושה is.

(see Bosi Ligani 5710 chapter 5)
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Unread 05-14-2006, 10:54 PM   #114
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gezetzt
It seems you don’t have a clear understanding what שטות דקדושה is.

(see Bosi Ligani 5710 chapter 5)
yes, I think i may have seen that before; you still have not answered why its not shtus dekedusha? This is my way of dancing,clapping, whisteling etc.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 10:57 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
All you got out of all those quotes from the Rebbe is that there's no need to search?

The Rebbe wasn't talking to people who were searching for the "best candidate."

He was talking davka to Lubs for whom there was no question that the Rebbe was the best candidate.

And his message to those people was, "Do not say, 'the Rebbe is M.'"
and are you telling us, that your search had been concluded before GT? hard to believe.
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Unread 05-14-2006, 11:02 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
The copy of the Rebbe's actual handwriting is printed in Tzaddik Lemelech # 7.
First time I have heard someone doubt the authenticity of the actual tzetel (leaving aside פרשנות).
Nu nu...
Authenticity covers many angles; could it be this was only meant for the recepient of the letter and the secretaries who were nogea b'davar expanded on it (similar to the Gutnick stock fiasco where answers to individuals were then amplified to mean everything v'ain etc al davar hamitztoer.)
And the content of this letter seems to contradict some other answers at the same time, some of which I heard on tapes from the Secrataries on the CH hotline.
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Unread 05-15-2006, 07:48 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
  • Authenticity covers many angles;
  • could it be this was only meant for the recepient of the letter and the secretaries who were nogea b'davar expanded on it
  • And the content of this letter seems to contradict some other answers at the same time.
Got it.

If a chabadnik refuses to go along with what a few chassidim do (calling the Rebbe infalliable & all knowing, writing to igrot, referring to the Rebbe as alive after 3t, saying to do mitzvot for the Rebbe to give him nachas ....), he needs to "leave chabad & become a misnagid."

If a mishichist comes up with 3 excuses why he doesn't need to follow a letter written by the Rebbe's hand, it's because he's a "real chabadnik" & real chabadnikim know that what the Rebbe wants is not what the Rebbe said.
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Unread 05-15-2006, 10:23 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
So explain in your opinion what the Rebbe meant when he said that the only avoda left is KPM? and this was after the famous "its not a mitzvah"; and you also have not answered my earlier post that the Rebbe could have easily said "issur gomur" and he didnt. Like Meshulam said, its not a mitzvah to be a mensch either.
hachi hashta!

to be a mench is not a Mitzvah,but if u r a Mentch u r doing many mitzvot at the same time
aval acha
the Rebbe said "this is something that has to be shouwn,in a time of need, The Rebbe said that b/c he knew that some ppl ,like you,that are so great chassidim , they were not going to listen(ths is exactely what the Rebbe said),this was after Kinus Hashluchim 5752,
and the time of need is after 3 of TaMUZ , where if u say that to ppl , u r merachek ppl from chassidus
The Rebbe said, it is not MITZVAH KLAL, Ahavas Ysroel is mitzvah
Imagine how the Rebbe knew that ppl were not going to listen at such an extend that they darshen.,"but if u have Ahavas Ysroel,if u have to do it".

I know that u have being manipulated ,(I see for your non sense comparaisons and how you think that the Yechis said for thr Rebbes refua were succesfulll))in essence u r a tinok shenishbah, Moshiach is going to come, and u also r going to be redeem
Nothing wrong if u continue Thinking the same way, but ,please, justdo it for the Rebbe, do not merachek ppl from chassidus telling them who is Moshiach.

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Unread 05-15-2006, 10:26 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
There is no point in going aroung in circles again, we know the varying opinions but could you respond to my answer to CN above; do you disagree with my analysis from your shita as a reference point.
hachi hashta!

to be a mench is not a Mitzvah?if u r a Mentch u r doing many mitzvot at the same time
aval acha
the Rebbe said "this is something that has to be shouwn,in a time of need, The Rebbe said that b/c he knew that some ppl ,like you,that are so great chassidim , they were not going to listen(ths is exactely what the Rebbe said),
and the time of need is after 3 of TaMUZ , where if u say that to ppl , u r merachek ppl from chassidus
The Rebbe said, it is not MITZVAH KLAL, Ahavas Ysroel is mitzvah
Imagine how the Rebbe knew that ppl were not going to listen at such an extend that they darshen.,"but if u have Ahavas Ysroel,if u have to do it"

I know that u have being manipulated ,(I see for your non sense comparaisons)in essence u r a tinok shenishbah, Moshiach is going to come, and u also r going to be redeem
Nothing wrong if u continue Thinking the same way, but ,please, justdo it for the Rebbe, do not merachek ppl from chassidus telling them who is Moshiach.

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Unread 05-15-2006, 02:16 PM   #120
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
hachi hashta!

to be a mench is not a Mitzvah?if u r a Mentch u r doing many mitzvot at the same time
aval acha
the Rebbe said "this is something that has to be shouwn,in a time of need, The Rebbe said that b/c he knew that some ppl ,like you,that are so great chassidim , they were not going to listen(ths is exactely what the Rebbe said),
and the time of need is after 3 of TaMUZ , where if u say that to ppl , u r merachek ppl from chassidus
The Rebbe said, it is not MITZVAH KLAL, Ahavas Ysroel is mitzvah
Imagine how the Rebbe knew that ppl were not going to listen at such an extend that they darshen.,"but if u have Ahavas Ysroel,if u have to do it"

I know that u have being manipulated ,(I see for your non sense comparaisons)in essence u r a tinok shenishbah, Moshiach is going to come, and u also r going to be redeem
Nothing wrong if u continue Thinking the same way, but ,please, justdo it for the Rebbe, do not merachek ppl from chassidus telling them who is Moshiach.
CN you are the best; But..here are a few questions for you or T613 if he comes back;
1. who was the letter written to?
2. Why didn't the Rebbe say this in a sicha instead of a letter?
3. Why wasnt this letter enough to stop the OFFICIAL Chabad magazine from declaring YECHI for tw year until after GT ( and even some issues after GT had it)?
4.Why did the official publishing company write M_H-M ibn Besuros Hageula after the letter?
5.Why did the Beis Din Rabbinim say Yechi etc after the letter?
6Did Rabbi Groner ever say that the Rebbe meant this letter to overide other answers he gave?
7 Why after this letter, did the Rebbe give answers which seem to be the opposite of this letter?
8.Why did the Rebbe simply not say, I prohibit any one who is a Chabad chosid from saying publicly that I am Moshiach?
9. How is this any differant freom answers the Rebbe gave in 5710 that he "is not the Rebbe" and yet became the Rebbe?
Instead of polemics, which is easy, I look forward to honest, cleaar answers to the above, but I hope the answers will be forthcoming.

8
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Unread 05-15-2006, 02:30 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Got it.

If a chabadnik refuses to go along with what a few chassidim do (calling the Rebbe infalliable & all knowing, writing to igrot, referring to the Rebbe as alive after 3t, saying to do mitzvot for the Rebbe to give him nachas ....), he needs to "leave chabad & become a misnagid."

If a mishichist comes up with 3 excuses why he doesn't need to follow a letter written by the Rebbe's hand, it's because he's a "real chabadnik" & real chabadnikim know that what the Rebbe wants is not what the Rebbe said.
FRUMKITE, please tell us which of my posts allegedly had the quote you (falsely? erroneously?) attributed to me.Further to clarify, do you believe the Rebbe erred when he said Hinei zeh bo? or when he said that Moshiach is coming in this generation, i.e. the 7th?
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Unread 05-16-2006, 09:27 AM   #122
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Waiting for some answers!

CN you are the best; But..here are a few questions for you or T613 if he comes back;
1. who was the letter written to?
2. Why didn't the Rebbe say this in a sicha instead of a letter?
3. Why wasnt this letter enough to stop the OFFICIAL Chabad magazine from declaring YECHI for tw year until after GT ( and even some issues after GT had it)?
4.Why did the official publishing company write M_H-M ibn Besuros Hageula after the letter?
5.Why did the Beis Din Rabbinim say Yechi etc after the letter?
6Did Rabbi Groner ever say that the Rebbe meant this letter to overide other answers he gave?
7 Why after this letter, did the Rebbe give answers which seem to be the opposite of this letter?
8.Why did the Rebbe simply not say, I prohibit any one who is a Chabad chosid from saying publicly that I am Moshiach?
9. How is this any differant freom answers the Rebbe gave in 5710 that he "is not the Rebbe" and yet became the Rebbe?
Instead of polemics, which is easy, I look forward to honest, cleaar answers to the above, but I hope the answers will be forthcoming.
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Unread 05-16-2006, 09:29 AM   #123
Torah613
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Rerun time...
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Unread 05-16-2006, 09:35 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Rerun time...
There was never a premiere, ergo it can't be rerun. Why do the Tories(NON-M kri)dodge the hard ones?
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Unread 05-16-2006, 09:56 AM   #125
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Because not everyone has the time or the gedult (סבלנות בלע"ז) for endless arguments בכל פרט ופרט [as in: Who says the letter exists, is it in the Rebbe's handwriting, who has the Rebbe's original handwriting, how do I know it is not forged, maybe the Rebbe said not to publicize it, maybe it shouldn't have been publicized even if the Rebbe said to, why wasn't it known before GT, why wasn't it known before 27 Adar, on what day exactly in that Adar was it written (so we can figure out what sicha was said the day beore or the day after to figure out what is משנה אחרונה), why was it given to Binyomin and not to Leibel, how trustworthy is Binyomin vs Laibel, who says Binyomin is a mazkir, who says he can be trusted, when was he appointed etc etc. - get the picture?], especially as all this has been dealt with to some extent or another in the past.
Also: Some of the responses I have (and trust me - I do!) are answers that you will never accept, border on things שהשתיקה יפה להם, so why deal with it? To be labled a כופר again? [Not that it bothers me..., just pointless, and it ain't no mitzvah]. Anyone who really wants an answer or at least my opinion on these questions (not just to extend an endless argument), can: 1) Look up the myriad of old threads that deal with the psak, the book, the BD etc. etc. 2) If someone really wants to know MHO on the matter (not to argue), they can PM me...
Another point: I am not really involved in these issues much these days, as my opinions and "doing this sugya" goes back many years (to the post GT era). In the spirit of קשה עתיקה מחדתא, going back, rethinking the issues, with the chain of reasoning that leads me to my conclusions, takes up an unordinate amount of time. There has to be a point were I say enough (unles I am goaded enough... ).
Also: Contrary to popular opinion and perception, I do have a life to lead, things to do etc.
Also: I decided to spend more time becoming an authentic TC...
ויש להאריך בכ"ז...
[And why always the name calling?].

Last edited by Torah613; 05-17-2006 at 07:54 AM.
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