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Unread 04-22-2009, 02:07 PM   #226
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Yeah, eggs aren't limbs, unless the baby is a rodef. (On second thought: huh?! Did that make sense to anyone?)
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Unread 09-15-2009, 11:13 AM   #227
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That was brought up in another thread and according to several members here, that website is a spoof intended to make a point.
i never knew about this thirty fifth lubavitcher rebbe
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Unread 06-13-2010, 04:44 PM   #228
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A short hesped on Rav Eliyahu by Kabbalist David Katz of Safed showing with gematrias and pesukim how he had the bechina of a Moshiach ben Yosef! http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/...2010-06-13.wmv
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Unread 06-14-2010, 02:59 PM   #229
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The Rebbe once wrote to a Chossid asking permission to spread the message that the Rebbe was Moshiach: "There is no obligation at all to try to identify who is Moshiach -. but there is a positive commandment of the Torah to love each and every Jew" so why bother with such questions? When Moshiach comes, we will all know he is Moshiach. The Rambam has already given the characteristics that will allow us to recognize him and the Rebbe insisted that we should stand to this description of the Rambam.

I think any discussion regarding the possibility that this person or this other one might be the Messiah is an obstacle to the identification of the true Messiah. (you eyes are so fixed on this person or that one that you could be unable to find that the true Moshiach is elsewhere, or even just beside you)
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Unread 07-24-2011, 12:32 AM   #230
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Moshiach

I'm sure Moshiach has tried to let people know he is already here ! Every one goes on and on about what Moshiach will be like,put down your expectations,this obscures your finding him,but with certainty he's on your forum..Hashem open our eye's before it's too late ! Bless you all ! Moses the Annointed One is here !!!

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Unread 08-10-2011, 11:48 PM   #231
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If the Rebbe said (as quoted below) clearly that the Frierdikeh Rebbe, and by extension, the Rebbe, is "the only Moshiach of our generation", then we as chassidim shouldn't be considering the possibility of anyone else as Moshiach.

Quote:
"The words, 'Please send the one whom You will eventually send,' [said by Moshe as he petitioned the Almighty to send the final Redeemer, Moshiach] are beginning to be fulfilled. [This is] the mission of the Rebbe, my father-in-law... leader of our generation, the only emissary of our generation, and the only Moshiach of our generation."

(Shabbos Chayei Sarah, 5752, ch. 13)
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Unread 08-11-2011, 11:57 AM   #232
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Hmmm.
I am doing אתכפיא.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 12:09 PM   #233
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Ahh, but then what's a "generation"? I don't mean in temporal sense; I mean in spatial sense. Back in the day, I was learning Ranat with a Sephardic friend of mine (who had previously learned in the Ponovitch yeshiva... long story). This was the Chassidic Heritage series edition, and he read in the introduction something about Rebbe Rashab calling his father "Nosi HaDor" (or FR calling Rebbe Rashab that). He was surprised (genuinely; i.e., it was a real question, not a misnagdish knee-jerk reflex) and asked: "How could he say that his father is Nosi HaDor?"

So, I was talking to one of the local shluchim and asked this question. He answered: It says that Moshe Rabbeinu stayed with the Yidden in desert. Why? Because he was their Rebbe. I.e., those Yidden that were mekushar to the M"R — he was their Nosi HaDor. So, the same way, a Rebbe is Nosi HaDor of those Yidden who are mekushar to him.

When I called my mashpia, he gave me a different answer, involving Mordechai (his answer suggested that the Rebbe is takeh Nosi HaDor of all Yidden), but my point is that there are people like the above shliach who may agree that the Rebbe is "the only leader of our generation", etc., but that the views of other Yidden that their Rebbeim are Nesiim HaDor are equally legitimate.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 12:45 PM   #234
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See in LS, Vol. 2, pages 517-518 where the Rebbe clearly explains what he meant by the FR "will redeem us", not as THE Moshiach, but as the Moshiach or Rebbe of HIS generation, the same way Moshe Rabbenu was only the Rebbe of those yidden who were part of HIS generation (and Yehoshua ben Nun succeeded him and became the Rebbe of the next generation, the generation of those who entered in EY). So, the reasoning of the first Shliach you asked was more in phase with the Rebbe's own words. The FR was only the Nasi of HIS own generation, and the Rebbe of HIS own generation, and that's why the FR could say about his father, the Rashab, that he was the Nasi of HIS Dor. In that sense, we can say that a Dor is limited to the Nasi at its head. Those who were chasidim of the FR and became chasidim of the Rebbe after YS 5711 entered into a new Dor with the Rebbe at their head.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 04:28 PM   #235
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Right. The first shliach quoted that sicho actually, now that I remember.

But as I said, my question was spatial, not temporal. It's poshut to say that A"R is not our Nosi HaDor. My question is: was A"R Nosi HaDor of the Litvisher Yidden that lived in his times? I.e., do you say that Dor = all the Yidden living in the current epoch (and some, of course, can end up living in two or more epochs), or Dor = specifically the Yidden who are mekushar to the Rebbe?

It seems to me that the first shliach (who was clearly anti-mishichist; he quoted his father later as saying that it doesn't matter who Moshiach is; when Geulah happens, he will be in Tzfas, with the Rebbe, whoever will sit in Yerushalayim) was saying that once you can use the concept Moshiach in a relative way temporally, that opens the door to saying that you can use it in a relative way spatially, within the same temporal period.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 04:54 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
But as I said, my question was spatial, not temporal. It's poshut to say that A"R is not our Nosi HaDor. My question is: was A"R Nosi HaDor of the Litvisher Yidden that lived in his times? I.e., do you say that Dor = all the Yidden living in the current epoch (and some, of course, can end up living in two or more epochs), or Dor = specifically the Yidden who are mekushar to the Rebbe?
This is indeed a really serious question.

But some could reason that if the Litvakim recognized the A'R as being Nosi of all the yidden, they wouldn't treat the A'R and his chasidim the way they did and there wouldn't have been all the issues between being chasidim or misnagdim.

I think that, it that period, the Vilna Gaon was clearly the Nosi HaDor in the eyes of the Litvakim, the same that Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum zt'l was considered by a large fringe of Satmar as being the Nosi HaDor.

So, after all, it may be a matter of perspective!

If I remember well, the Rebbe quoted once the Gemoro Sanhedrin about the different schools which were claiming that the name of their respective Rebbe was the name of the Moshiach (Menachem, Shila, Yannai and Chaninah) and said that from this gemoro we can learn that there is no shame to believe such things about his own Rebbe.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:11 PM   #237
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You seem to say that Nosi HaDor = someone recognized by all the Yidden as their Nosi. That would solve all the problems; if such were the case, there would be no question re: either the Rebbe or the previous Rebbeim.

But that's clearly not the case, which is why you either have to say that either being Nosi HaDor means being a Nosi of a specific group of Yidden (and is dependent on their being mekushar to the Nosi), or being Nosi HaDor has nothing to do with other Yidden recognizing the Nossi as anything, which is my mashpia's answer, where he used Mordechai as an example of Nossi HaDor (according to the Rebbe), where the majority of Yidden didn't recognize him as such. (I don't remember the details, though — I can ask him.)

If I had to guess (for what little it's worth), the point would be that the Rebbe is the source of Chassidus Chabad, which is pnimiyus HaTorah. That makes him Nossi HaDor, not recognition of the majority of Yidden. (Of course, what makes him the Rebbe is that he has chassidim to whom to reveal Chassidus.)
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:14 PM   #238
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I think that, it that period, the Vilna Gaon was clearly the Nosi HaDor in the eyes of the Litvakim, the same that Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum zt'l was considered by a large fringe of Satmar as being the Nosi HaDor.

So, after all, it may be a matter of perspective!

If I remember well, the Rebbe quoted once the Gemoro Sanhedrin about the different schools which were claiming that the name of their respective Rebbe was the name of the Moshiach (Menachem, Shila, Yannai and Chaninah) and said that from this gemoro we can learn that there is no shame to believe such things about his own Rebbe.
But all these examples don't bring a raya either way. You could interpret them as examples of each group considering their Rebbe as their [relative] Nossi HaDor, or each group independently considering that something about their derech is the ikkar of Yiddishkeit, which makes their Rebbe THE [absolute] Nossi HaDor.

(Obviously, we agree to disagree, respect each other, etc. That goes without saying.)
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:27 PM   #239
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You seem to say that Nosi HaDor = someone recognized by all the Yidden as their Nosi. That would solve all the problems; if such were the case, there would be no question re: either the Rebbe or the previous Rebbeim.
You didn't read me very well! This is not what I said.

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But that's clearly not the case, which is why you either have to say that either being Nosi HaDor means being a Nosi of a specific group of Yidden (and is dependent on their being mekushar to the Nosi)
This is the opinion I expressed! That's why I brought the Vilna Gaon and the Satmar Rov who were considered "Nosi HaDor" by their followers at the same period that the chasidim recognized their Rebbeim (the A'R and the Rebbe) as being "Nosi HaDor". That's why I said that maybe the issue of "Nosi HaDor" is, after all, a question of perspective.

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or being Nosi HaDor has nothing to do with other Yidden recognizing the Nossi as anything, which is my mashpia's answer, where he used Mordechai as an example of Nossi HaDor (according to the Rebbe), where the majority of Yidden didn't recognize him as such. (I don't remember the details, though — I can ask him.)

If I had to guess (for what little it's worth), the point would be that the Rebbe is the source of Chassidus Chabad, which is pnimiyus HaTorah. That makes him Nossi HaDor, not recognition of the majority of Yidden. (Of course, what makes him the Rebbe is that he has chassidim to whom to reveal Chassidus.)
The problem with that reasoning is that those who do not follow our Rebbeim will look at us as being arrogant and pretentious in raising our Rebbe to the level of the "Nosi HaDor" while he is not considered like that by most yidden in the frum velt.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:29 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
But all these examples don't bring a raya either way. You could interpret them as examples of each group considering their Rebbe as their [relative] Nossi HaDor, or each group independently considering that something about their derech is the ikkar of Yiddishkeit, which makes their Rebbe THE [absolute] Nossi HaDor.

(Obviously, we agree to disagree, respect each other, etc. That goes without saying.)
In fact, we do not disagree as it was precisely my reasoning. See my previous post!
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:31 PM   #241
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Sorry I misunderstood you.

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The problem with that reasoning is that those who do not follow our Rebbeim will look at us as being arrogant and pretentious in raising our Rebbe to the level of the "Nosi HaDor" while he is not considered like that by most yidden in the frum velt.
Well, I understand the validity of that on emotional level, but on intellectual level, is it more arrogant to say that our Rebbe is Nosi HaDor (though most don’t recognize him as such) than to say that Chassidus Chabad is pnimiyus haTorah (though most don’t recognize it as such)? But the Rebbe clearly said that! (Plus, the Rebbe links the revelation of Chassidus Chabad with Moshiach/Geulah, etc.)

Note that I am not talking here about the pragmatic value of standing on the rooftops and screaming that our Rebbe is Nossi HaDor.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 05:40 PM   #242
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Sorry I misunderstood you.

Well, I understand the validity of that on emotional level, but on intellectual level, is it more arrogant to say that our Rebbe is Nosi HaDor (though most don’t recognize him as such) than to say that Chassidus Chabad is pnimiyus haTorah (though most don’t recognize it as such)? But the Rebbe clearly said that! (Plus, the Rebbe links the revelation of Chassidus Chabad with Moshiach/Geulah, etc.)

Note that I am not talking here about the pragmatic value of standing on the rooftops and screaming that our Rebbe is Nossi HaDor.
Once again, we agree! What I was saying is that those who do not walk according to our Rebbeim will find the argument arrogant, not that it is arrogant to think such things about our Rebbeim. People will say that being the only one believing that our Rebbeim were the Nesiim of their doros on the basis that "It does not matter if you reject him as such" is an arrogant attitude. In fact, it reminds me if that Gemoro in Sanhedrin I brought where each school claimed that his Rebbe was Moshiach. If you look closely, the Reshei tevos of each name spell "Moshiach" (M= Menachem; Sh= Shila; Y= Yannai; Ch= Chanina). The lesson may be that considering that his own Rebbe is Moshiach is a question of perspective (each one calling his own Rebbe "Moshiach of our Generation"), but when you put them together, they all contribute to bring Moshiach closer (the Reshei Tevos of each name spelling Moshiach).
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Unread 08-11-2011, 10:11 PM   #243
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There was once a thread here discussing this issue of Nosi Hador. I will try to find it.
In short - the whole concept is relatively recent.
[Later addition:] See this post http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...3&postcount=77 (and the thread there), plus the threads referenced in that post.
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Unread 08-11-2011, 10:19 PM   #244
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There was once a thread here discussing this issue of Nosi Hador. I will try to find it.
In short - the whole concept is relatively recent.
[Later addition:] See this post http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...3&postcount=77 (and the thread there), plus the threads referenced in that post.
...and I will even add that the whole topic is not objective at all!
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Unread 08-12-2011, 04:19 PM   #245
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Moshiach

Hashem said to me "Your Moses The Annointed One" and "You are the Government"...I will submit to a polygraph,to prove I'm telling the absolute truth..When Hashem told me I was Moses,I took this to mean My soul is the reincarnated or incarnated soul of Moses himself..When Hashem told me I was The Annointed One,I took this to be a reference to Moshiach..When Hashem told me I was the government,I took this to be an unmistakable reference to Moshiach...As it is written, authority will rest on his shoulders..Hashem said to me, "Witness Jerusalem Approved"..I took this to mean I will eventually go to Jerusalem to witness,bear testimony or evidence of Hashem..I took this to be in reference to, the word of the Lord shall go forth out of Jerusalem or Zion...I have had many supernatural miracles happen,with witnesses..I could'nt began to relate many of these things untill recently..Concerning Moses asking Hashem to send the one you will send..Moses wanted the redemption right then and there..If Moses would have led the children of Israel into the promised land at that time,it would have been an eternal redemption and Moses knew this..We have a second chance,let's not blow it..
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Unread 08-12-2011, 04:25 PM   #246
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Hashem said to me "Your Moses The Annointed One" and "You are the Government"...
most problably you might be the next president
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Unread 08-17-2011, 02:20 PM   #247
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most problably you might be the next president
And maybe he won't


Sponge, The world and history is full self-important individuals that absorb and soak up "sweet whisperings" Everybody likes to think they are somehow better, chosen and destined for greatness.

But the truth is, greatness, is found in servitude. It is found in patience, long suffering and wisdom. We can aptly attend the words of the wise but wisdom is usually gained through painful experience.

There comes a point when realization hits hard and one discovers that the world doesn't exist for them but rather they exist for the world.

The world is full of delusional tyrants, great and small, that suppose them self more entitled, more capable and that seek to enrich and aggrandize themselves at the cost of fellow human beings.

There are many wise that eagerly await the arrival of Moshiach that just as eagerly await their own retirement.



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Unread 08-18-2011, 02:51 AM   #248
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most problably you might be the next president
Chossidnistar,thanks for your vote of confidence,about 10 months ago for some states I filled out the paperwork to become an independent write in candidate for president of USA ..I'm virtually unknown so it will be a monumental task..I tried to answer you a couple nights ago,but somehow I managed to lose the last two posts.One took me an hour to write..Have a nice day !!! Sponge..
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Unread 08-18-2011, 03:01 AM   #249
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And maybe he won't


Sponge, The world and history is full self-important individuals that absorb and soak up "sweet whisperings" Everybody likes to think they are somehow better, chosen and destined for greatness.

But the truth is, greatness, is found in servitude. It is found in patience, long suffering and wisdom. We can aptly attend the words of the wise but wisdom is usually gained through painful experience.

There comes a point when realization hits hard and one discovers that the world doesn't exist for them but rather they exist for the world.

The world is full of delusional tyrants, great and small, that suppose them self more entitled, more capable and that seek to enrich and aggrandize themselves at the cost of fellow human beings.

There are many wise that eagerly await the arrival of Moshiach that just as eagerly await their own retirement.



Coffee9,I will respond to your post in the next couple nights,I just spent 30 minutes writing a response,and somehow I lost it..The suffering I've been through in my life is horrendous,try heart failure,respiratory failure,kidney failure,for starters,and thats only in the last 16 months,and only a partial list in that time frame..I welcome your post and will respond fully,when I have more time..Sponge..
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Unread 09-27-2011, 10:59 AM   #250
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Very soon I will go to Israel..
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