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Unread 02-12-2006, 07:52 PM   #76
Hiskashrus
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Meshulam, understand that Judaism B'chlal, and Chassidus B'frat doesn't depend on understanding or learning the 5752 maamorim.

Let me ask you a question: why do the yeshivos learn maamorim or chassidus from previous rabbeim? why don't they learn maamorim from the rebbe? there are many maamorim from which we can chose?
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Unread 02-12-2006, 07:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kol Mevaser
According to the halacha the Rebbe has been ruled to be b'chezkas Moshiach already by hundreds of Rabbonim. http://www.psakdin.org/en/
http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.p...er=3&section=3
http://www.moshiach.net/blind/count.htm
Were they correct? Were they correct as to the requirements of fulfilment? Here is a thought about those requirements. Not that the analysis is perfectly adaptable, but it is insightful.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

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Unread 02-12-2006, 07:57 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kol Mevaser
According to the halacha the Rebbe has been ruled to be b'chezkas Moshiach already by hundreds of Rabbonim. http://www.psakdin.org/en/
http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.p...er=3&section=3
http://www.moshiach.net/blind/count.htm
And halacha rules that when someone is bechezkas dies, we then know he is not Moshiach (without getting into the validity of the "psak", which has been dicussed elsewhere).
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:00 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
And halacha rules that when someone is bechezkas dies, we then know he is not Moshiach (without getting into the validity of the "psak", which has been dicussed elsewhere).
This is correct. Kol, please don't forget Rambam's comment on this issue.
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:03 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kol Mevaser
According to the halacha the Rebbe has been ruled to be b'chezkas Moshiach already by hundreds of Rabbonim. http://www.psakdin.org/en/
http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.p...er=3&section=3
http://www.moshiach.net/blind/count.htm
Here is a thought Kol. We know that Rebbe was not Moshiach ben David for a number of reasons. But is it possible that he was the one described in Malachi 3:1-4?
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:05 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by DW Duke
Here is a thought Kol. We know that Rebbe was not Moshiach ben David for a number of reasons. But is it possible that he was the one described in Malachi 3:1-4?
I believe that he was. And I am here today to say that he was.
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
Meshulam, understand that Judaism B'chlal, and Chassidus B'frat doesn't depend on understanding or learning the 5752 maamorim.
5752 maamorim?
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:42 PM   #83
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ooops. i mean sichos (actually, if people would understand the maamorim from meluket VI, mah tov umah no'im)
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:45 PM   #84
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Perfection

Malachi 3:1-4
1. Behold I send My angel, and he will clear a way before Me. And suddenly, the Lord Whom you seek will come to His Temple. And behold! The angel of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.

2. Now who can abide the day of his coming, and who will stand when he appears, for it is like fire that refines and like fullers' soap.

3. And he shall sit refining and purifying silver, and he shall purify the children of Levi. And he shall purge them as gold and as silver, and they shall be offering up an offering to the Lord with righteousness.

4. And then the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem shall be pleasant to the Lord, as in the days of old and former years.
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:47 PM   #85
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Reality

Tears among men are permitted at chabad.com
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Unread 02-12-2006, 08:52 PM   #86
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Behold I send My angel, and he will clear a way before Me.

Behold I send My angel, and he will clear a way before Me.
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Unread 02-12-2006, 09:02 PM   #87
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Past Tense

Did Rebbe already anoint Moshiach ben David?
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:05 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
Meshulam, understand that Judaism B'chlal, and Chassidus B'frat doesn't depend on understanding or learning the 5752 maamorim.
There are no 5752 Maamorim, so I don't really know what you're getting at.

I'll pretend you said sichos.

Still, I don't know what you're getting at. The Rebbe changed his tone in the later years, and began to speak at length about Moshiach. Furthermore, his talks about Moshiach gave most (all?) of his Chassidim the idea that he was speaking about himself. I believe that people who are interested in this subject (and we should be interested in this subject, given that the Rebbe said it was the one remaining shlichus in his Sicho of Chayei Sarah 5752) should learn the later sichos specifically because it was in those sichos that the Rebbe discussed these subjects most openly. Furthermore, they are the last sichos that the Rebbe addressed to us, so they contain the most current ideas and instructions for the Rebbe's Chassidim, and for the Jewish world.

Nobody said that Judaism "depends on understanding the 5752" sichos. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

I find it interesting, though, that whenever the discussion turns to the later sichos, someone has to say something like "oh, is that all you people learn?" The answer is obviously no. But the question/accusation is meant to take the attention off of the uncomfortable topic of these later sichos (I imagine because they seriously undercut your anti position). It seems that any time anybody learns or mentions a nun beis sicho, some anti accuses him of not learning the earlier sichos or maamorim (from all of the other Rebbeim).

And this only happens with those sichos. When I posted a thread about whether the Tzemach Tzedek took the Strashelyer Rebbe's position when he disagreed with R' Hillel M'Paritch, nobody accused me of learning Tzemach Tzedek to the exclusion of the other Rebbeim. Or Strashelyer. Or R' Hillel. Only here when I mention the Rebbe's later sichos. In fact, I don't think you even commented on that forum.

And I frankly find it disturbing that in a Chabad setting, claiming to have learned the Rebbe's most recent proclamations would be treated as a liability!
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:07 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
And halacha rules that when someone is bechezkas dies, we then know he is not Moshiach (without getting into the validity of the "psak", which has been dicussed elsewhere).
This has been discussed at length elsewhere. Suffice it to say that your pithy summary of Rambam hardly does justice to the topic.

For a good treatment of that subject, see www.moshiachfacts.com in the q & a section.
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:11 AM   #90
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the reason is, simply, because the sichos from those years aren't understood. in fact, when learning the rebbe's torah, one must be careful to distinguish between what the rebbe brings down as a simple explanation or source from another place in chassidus, and what the rebbe wants to be mechadesh in the sicha/maamer. and this has happened to me many times; i have learned sichos of the rebbe, and once i came across a certain maamer of another rebbe (or of the same rebbe, but of a different year) i said to myself "i didn't understand it" since what i thought then to be the rebbe's chiddus was merely a biur and quote from another source in chassidus, and what the rebbe wanted to be mechadesh is unknown.

this is besides the fact, that much of the sichos of nun-beis are based on ayin-beis - when was the last time you learned that?
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:12 AM   #91
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and, i have nothing against people only learning nun-alef/nunbeis sichos, per se, but don't start basing new and unheard of customs, just because you lack knowledge in chassidus.

moshiachfacts... iv'e heard that name before
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:32 AM   #92
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This argument is also off base (and its also the standard second line of defense when the whole "you only learn nun beis sichos" argument fails.) Above you wrote maamorim instead of sichos. Here you make the same mistake. While Maamorim are deep discussions of kabbalistic insights, these later sichos contain some very straightforward horaos (as well as explanations of deep insights). In his sichos from the later years, the Rebbe addresses everybody! The statements he made about Moshiach were made to everybody. The problem with them, as far as folks like you are concerned, is that they're too easy to understand. It bothers you folks to the core that the Rebbe would reveal himself so openly to stam Yidden. So while understanding the inner explanations of the concepts the Rebbe reaveals in these sichos helps to appreciate the definition of concepts like dira b'tachtonim, and the need for Moshiach, etc., they are not essential to understanding the simple messages that the Rebbe revealed to everyone: That Moshiach is here, and that this is the generation of redemption!

So, rather than let people learn these things (which, as I said, are fairly self-explanatory) you come up with either a.) reasons for people not to learn them (you won't understand them) b.) witty retorts for those who have learned them (haha, when was the last time you learned ayin beis) or c.) roundabout explanations (the Rebbe was giving a brocho, not havtocho, even though he actually uses the loshon of havtocho in many places).

These arguments all fail because the actual language of the sichos themselves refutes them. I don't know why this bothers you, but you seem to be very threatened by the idea that any stam-a-guy is zoche to understanding the imminence of Moshiach, and to have a relationship with Melech HaMoshiach himself.

Now, all I was trying to do in my post above was make a resource available to those who want to learn more. Specifically, I want people to know that they can order the first in a hopefully (soon to be) large series of translated sichos from the "In Depth Moshiach Study Series" by calling 718-771-7290. Interestingly, its only a translation (with brief explanations). Nothing more. In fact, the publisher/translater never writes Yechi anywhere. In the "shar blat," he attributes the work to "The Lubavitcher Rebbe" (rather than the "Lubavitcher Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach LeOlam Voed, or some such thing). So all this is is a resource. Moreover, its a resource from the Rebbe himself. So please hold your commentary, if you have any respect for your Rebbe! I am not a propaganda artist (though maybe the Rebbe was, heh). So your accusations are misplaced.
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:38 AM   #93
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Quote:
Above you wrote maamorim instead of sichos
i retracted that statement after t613 notified me. do you read posts?
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Unread 02-13-2006, 12:40 AM   #94
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the fact that those sichos are printed in yiddish are takeh shver.

what about the deep sichos that were printed in yiddish, and now published in vol. 5-9? those were also intended for all to understand!

- what do you, a self-proclaimed tzugekuminer, know about what the sichos were for?
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Unread 02-13-2006, 01:09 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
This argument is also off base (and its also the standard second line of defense when the whole "you only learn nun beis sichos" argument fails.) Above you wrote maamorim instead of sichos. Here you make the same mistake. While Maamorim are deep discussions of kabbalistic insights, these later sichos contain some very straightforward horaos (as well as explanations of deep insights). In his sichos from the later years, the Rebbe addresses everybody! The statements he made about Moshiach were made to everybody. The problem with them, as far as folks like you are concerned, is that they're too easy to understand. It bothers you folks to the core that the Rebbe would reveal himself so openly to stam Yidden. So while understanding the inner explanations of the concepts the Rebbe reaveals in these sichos helps to appreciate the definition of concepts like dira b'tachtonim, and the need for Moshiach, etc., they are not essential to understanding the simple messages that the Rebbe revealed to everyone: That Moshiach is here, and that this is the generation of redemption!

So, rather than let people learn these things (which, as I said, are fairly self-explanatory) you come up with either a.) reasons for people not to learn them (you won't understand them) b.) witty retorts for those who have learned them (haha, when was the last time you learned ayin beis) or c.) roundabout explanations (the Rebbe was giving a brocho, not havtocho, even though he actually uses the loshon of havtocho in many places).

These arguments all fail because the actual language of the sichos themselves refutes them. I don't know why this bothers you, but you seem to be very threatened by the idea that any stam-a-guy is zoche to understanding the imminence of Moshiach, and to have a relationship with Melech HaMoshiach himself.

Now, all I was trying to do in my post above was make a resource available to those who want to learn more. Specifically, I want people to know that they can order the first in a hopefully (soon to be) large series of translated sichos from the "In Depth Moshiach Study Series" by calling 718-771-7290. Interestingly, its only a translation (with brief explanations). Nothing more. In fact, the publisher/translater never writes Yechi anywhere. In the "shar blat," he attributes the work to "The Lubavitcher Rebbe" (rather than the "Lubavitcher Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach LeOlam Voed, or some such thing). So all this is is a resource. Moreover, its a resource from the Rebbe himself. So please hold your commentary, if you have any respect for your Rebbe! I am not a propaganda artist (though maybe the Rebbe was, heh). So your accusations are misplaced.
Meshulam: u r smart enough to understand that some people can think different. and u know 100% that, if they learn the sichos, 5750 to 5752 , they are going to read the same thing as you.Afetr all , it is the same print
The question is : When you learn Gemara , we r going to see that although, u have the same print than the Rosh Yeshivah, sometimes ,u r no t going to understand a Tosafos, or a Rashi, or a simple pshat in Gemara, that sometimes is not so simple.
In fact there are pleny of Machlokes in the Gemara,(sorry, I am writting in spaninglish)and even if u learn the wrong pshat, most problably that , u r going to find an Amorah that learns like u.Not so bad, no?
So, here is a discussion with no end
u can read this http://www.moshiachlisten.com/history.html

and , this is this guy opinion, 2 jews(3 opinions),the point is , everyone wants Moshiach, and everyone does wathever they can, and we r going to be all happy , when Moshiach will be revealed ifor all the world
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Unread 02-13-2006, 01:22 AM   #96
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the mechaber of this article is the same mechaber of yudelkrinsky.com
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Unread 02-13-2006, 01:41 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
Meshulam: u r smart enough to understand that some people can think different. and u know 100% that, if they learn the sichos, 5750 to 5752 , they are going to read the same thing as you.Afetr all , it is the same print
The question is : When you learn Gemara , we r going to see that although, u have the same print than the Rosh Yeshivah, sometimes ,u r no t going to understand a Tosafos, or a Rashi, or a simple pshat in Gemara, that sometimes is not so simple.
In fact there are pleny of Machlokes in the Gemara,(sorry, I am writting in spaninglish)and even if u learn the wrong pshat, most problably that , u r going to find an Amorah that learns like u.Not so bad, no?
So, here is a discussion with no end
u can read this http://www.moshiachlisten.com/history.html

and , this is this guy opinion, 2 jews(3 opinions),the point is , everyone wants Moshiach, and everyone does wathever they can, and we r going to be all happy , when Moshiach will be revealed ifor all the world
If you're going to respond to a thread, read the whole thing first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
Now, all I was trying to do in my post above was make a resource available to those who want to learn more. Specifically, I want people to know that they can order the first in a hopefully (soon to be) large series of translated sichos from the "In Depth Moshiach Study Series" by calling 718-771-7290. Interestingly, its only a translation (with brief explanations). Nothing more. In fact, the publisher/translater never writes Yechi anywhere. In the "shar blat," he attributes the work to "The Lubavitcher Rebbe" (rather than the "Lubavitcher Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach LeOlam Voed, or some such thing). So all this is is a resource. Moreover, its a resource from the Rebbe himself. So please hold your commentary, if you have any respect for your Rebbe! I am not a propaganda artist (though maybe the Rebbe was, heh). So your accusations are misplaced.
and again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
I think that the best thing to do is to learn these sichos in depth. I think you'll come to the conclusion that I have: that the Rebbe a) identified himself as Moshiach and b) that he prepared us for Gimel Tamuz 5754. If not, then at least you've made an informed decision. I wish I could have given you better leads, but it turns out that most of this stuff remains untranslated. Hopefully, that will change. Even better: Hopefully, Moshiach will be revealed immediately.
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Unread 02-13-2006, 01:46 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
the fact that those sichos are printed in yiddish are takeh shver.
They alternate between Yiddish and Hebrew. The Hebrew ones were prepared under the direction of the Rebbe himself.

Quote:
what about the deep sichos that were printed in yiddish, and now published in vol. 5-9? those were also intended for all to understand!
They are difficult, but they are self contained. If you learn a sicho from those chalakim, you get all the info you need within the sicho itself.

What's the Yiddish hangup? Yiddish is the language of Chassidim. It theoretically should be easier to read the Yiddish than the LK. If you find the opposite to be true, that's your issue. But you can't say that the sichos are intended to be elitest because they're "in another language." That argument is shvach.
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Unread 02-13-2006, 01:48 AM   #99
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I post info about how someone can read the Rebbe's sichos for himself, and make his own determinations, and you respond with a propaganda site and Yudelkrinsky.com? Its sad, but it speaks volumes.
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Unread 02-13-2006, 02:00 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
.

Now, all I was trying to do in my post above was make a resource available to those who want to learn more. Specifically, I want people to know that they can order the first in a hopefully (soon to be) large series of translated sichos from the "In Depth Moshiach Study Series" by calling 718-771-7290. Interestingly, its only a translation (with brief explanations). Nothing more.
If it is so simple, why the need to treat people as stupids, that they need "brief explanations"
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