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Unread 01-01-2006, 08:27 PM   #26
Hiskashrus
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i'm not actually disagreeing with you, but i was a bit upset about the fact and need for this argument; (besides the fact that iv'e heard these stuff hundreds (bli guzma) of times).

what i was basically saying is that if someone really believes that the rebbe is moshiach, then the argument (as well as the "rayos") aren't too much to speak about. i'm sorry if i'm not making myself clear. how about read my post above (when i was in the mood of typing )
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Unread 01-01-2006, 09:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrigued
It would appear that the annointing of Mashiach occurs from Hashem.
The acceptance of Mashiach is left up to the people.
But who crowns Mashiach?

THe rebbe told us the answer- that it is our job to Mikabel pnei Moshiach Tzidkaynu (ChayaySorah Nun Beis)
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Unread 01-01-2006, 09:35 PM   #28
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
The Arizal, one of the most important Kabbalists who lived 400 years ago, writes in his book, Sha'ar HaGilgulim (chapter 13), that Moshiach does not die. After Moshiach reveals himself, there is a period of concealment, and then he is revealed again.
can i see the complete context?
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:42 PM   #30
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Oy vey, Hiskashrus, you don't trust "jewishwomenunited.org"?!
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:44 PM   #31
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Alright! Torah613, you're familiar with the sicha where the Rebbe says that the FR is Moshiach eventhough there was Histalkus.
Hiskashrus, perhaps you're familiar with the famous letter from R. Aaron Soloveitchik ZT"L?
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronke
Alright! Torah613, you're familiar with the sicha where the Rebbe says that the FR is Moshiach eventhough there was Histalkus.
Enlighten me.
Quote:
Hiskashrus, perhaps you're familiar with the famous letter from R. Aaron Soloveitchik ZT"L?
You mean the one that Ploni drafted?
Discussed here at length http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

Last edited by Torah613; 01-01-2006 at 11:01 PM.
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Oy vey, Hiskashrus, you don't trust "jewishwomenunited.org"?!
i'm plotzing from laughter.

but seriously, i'm looking for that quote from shaar hagilgulim.
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:57 PM   #34
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aronke, i still don't see why the FR can't be moshiach?
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Unread 01-01-2006, 10:57 PM   #35
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You guys are right! Moshiach is one big laughing matter! One big joke! Keep spraying the cold water and all the best!
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Unread 01-01-2006, 11:02 PM   #36
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Chas Vesholom! Problem is, a certain element in L turned it into a laughing matter...
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Unread 01-01-2006, 11:03 PM   #37
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and just because moshiach is a joke for those "elements" (if not for some "letter" by rabbi soloveitchik), doesn't mean it's a joke for all
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Unread 01-01-2006, 11:05 PM   #38
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i can't believe that were'e still arguing about this stuff. i remember these discussions here on CT (lubavitch.info) around 5 years ago, in fact, these were the only discussions
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Unread 01-01-2006, 11:18 PM   #39
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Who's arguing? Look in the thread I referenced...brings back memories of times when ' ...
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Unread 01-01-2006, 11:41 PM   #40
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Re: Mashiach from the dead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronke
In response to Reb Yid. I am currently doing research and I believe that the Rebbe in a letter (Ksav Yad) after Yud Shvat 5710 explained how the Frierdike Rebbe can still be Moshiach even though there was Histalkus etc. I will give you more details soon IY"H B"N.

I will save you the trouble: You are referring to the sicha of 13 Shvat 5711.
Quote:
This of course is in addition to everything brought before by Tzemach from the Abarbanel, Kisvei HaAriza"l, Sdei Chemed, Abarbanel (In his book Yeshuos Meshicho), and the Zohar.

Btw, I was once on a bus in Bnei Brak and was asked by 2 Bachurim who learned in Ponovitch (One of them was a heavy-duty Shachnik) How come so many in Lubavitch believe that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach if he passed away? To which I answered that the Sdei Chemed says that Moshiach can come from the dead. Then the Shachnik told me in total innocence that he never heard of the Sdei Chemed.
(This story happened to me aprrox 9 years ago and I'm not trying to put down other Yidden Ch"v by saying it over but rather to bring out that most of the misunderstandings involved with this issue simply result from lack of knowllege.)
Why should he have heard of the Sdei Chemed? The only reason L bochurim know of the SC is 1) because Kehos printed it, 2) because they have to quote from it.
There are many important and (more) famous seforim that many L bochurim are ignorant about.
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Unread 01-02-2006, 12:14 AM   #41
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If we are recycling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
i'm plotzing from laughter.

but seriously, i'm looking for that quote from shaar hagilgulim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi_D
I reviewed the entire chapter in "Shaar HaGilgulim" (ch. 13), as referenced in the "editorial note" appended to the RAS letter. There is absolutely no mention of Mashiach (at all, in any context) anywhere in this chapter. Only more discussion of the details of the gilgul process. The chapter ends with a statement that all the tzadikim have 2 souls, and refers the reader to the beginning of parshas Noach in the Zohar.

This can hardly be used as a "proof" (of any type) for the proposition that Mashiach can arise from the dead.

The other reference to "Arba Meot Shekel," p. 68, I am afraid fairs no better. (Assuming the pagination used was from the Branweind (sp?) edition. The entire work is close to 300 pages, so no time to review more than just p. 68, and a page before and a page after.)
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...&postcount=114
Anyway, there is a bit of a stira of what this Arizal (if it exists...) says, according to "jewishwomenunited.org", it says Moshiach does not die (does that shtim with Rambam?); according to the (alleged) RAS letter, it says Moshiach can come from the dead.
So... what is it?

Last edited by Torah613; 01-02-2006 at 12:33 AM.
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Unread 01-02-2006, 12:27 AM   #42
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besides the fact, that "moshiach cannot die" signifies something else, especialy when mentioned in kaballah, and especially according to the h'arah in LS. (although i would like to see the sicha in it's full context, before it was mugeh).
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Unread 01-02-2006, 12:30 AM   #43
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I don't think you'll find that ha'oro there.
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Unread 01-02-2006, 12:54 AM   #44
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besides, i don't think the original hanocho exists, the sicha was mugeh that week... and i don't see it being spoken about anywhere.

makes me wonder if the rebbe put that ha'aro inside, or if someone put it inside (at the time there was a koch about moshiach not being able to come from the dead, i think) and the rebbe OK'd it (not that i am arguing or disputing the claims that you derive from the ha'arah, which is quite clear).
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Unread 01-02-2006, 09:52 AM   #45
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look in hisvaaduyos. the likut is from achsh"p 5748 and maamer v'dovid avdi 5742.

i checked the sicha (which was mugeh) and i don't think such a thing would be said in a maamer. there probably is a hanocho of some sort, but which i don't know where (And from who) to locate.

i just want to see when (and if) that point was originally included.
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Unread 01-03-2006, 10:28 AM   #46
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who is going to crown Moshiach

before anyone answer any of my questions do not send me to another site to look it up and don't write it in hebrew please....
give me the answers in laymen terms
1. if the Rebbe is Moshiach why didn't the Rebbe just say it. B'klal lubavitch argue among themselves to the point of not accepting them in their schools.
2. i want Moshiach very much, and now! to be honest i really don't care who it is!! why does it matter who it is???
3. i heard some people say the Rebbe called the Freideker Rebbe Moshiach what does that mean and if he did how is it possible for the Rebbe to be Moshiach
4 why do some only learn the sichos dealing with Moshiach? (from the latter years they say it is the most relevant).
are some sichos more important than others, are not maamarim very important to learn is that not the meat and potatoes?
the individual who on this thread who believes the Rebbe is Moshiach ....nu is the whole focus to prove it to everyone or what is the avodah for you to do(i am not trying to be rude i am truly curiuos) it seems so much energy goes into proving the Rebbe is Moshiach, is that the directive the Rebbe gave?
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Unread 01-03-2006, 11:24 AM   #47
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Oy...
Quote:
"Shaar HaGilgulim" (ch. 13),
dredging up memories......its in sefer gilgulim if I am recalling right and there is more than one edition with that title and they are not the same...

I am not sure where my copies are
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Unread 01-03-2006, 11:33 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul
before anyone answer any of my questions do not send me to another site to look it up and don't write it in hebrew please....
give me the answers in laymen terms
1. if the Rebbe is Moshiach why didn't the Rebbe just say it. B'klal lubavitch argue among themselves to the point of not accepting them in their schools.
You mean Chicago? The point should probably be made the the "mishichist" schools will take anyone, without regard to politics. The same can't be said for the "mainstream" schools.

But regardless, the answer to your question is simple. In the long history of Lubavitch, the Rebbeim have never made the tough questions easy for us. This applies especially to questions of succession. At one point in Lubavitch history, Lubavitch was literally outnumbered by Kopust. That means that the Rebbe Maharash was less popular, at one point, then his brother the Kapuster. Now, according to our propaganda (this word you must say with a yiddish accent for the full effect to be felt), the Rebbe Maharash was a Tzaddik Gamor (Complete Tzaddik), and anyone else was, at best, a Tzaddik v'Ra Lo (Incomplete Tzaddik). But the Tzemach Tzekek still didn't make the decision an easy one for Chassidim. He could have, with a single decree, solidified the leadership of the Chabad movement. He chose not to because it is so essential (especially according to Chabad Chassidus) for the Am (the people) to pick their Melech (king).

So too now. Would there be any question in anyone's mind if the Rebbe had made it clear? Probably not. But that would be a king placing himself above a nation. That's not how it works. (See any of the great monarchies of Jewish history to see how this is true: Dovid HaMelech is a great example. How much time passed between when he was annointed, and when he was coronated? Why? I think you'll find that the nation had to accept Dovid HaMelech before he could become king, despite the fact that G-d Almighty had annointed him. The same applies here)

Perhaps a stronger question is: If the Rebbe was/is not Moshiach, why didn't he ever deny it? (I have an answer for your question, do you have an answer for mine)

Quote:
2. i want Moshiach very much, and now! to be honest i really don't care who it is!! why does it matter who it is???
This is a good question. There are some who could tell you to look in Sicha A Ois B Line C, etc. But you said you didn't want that, and I'll take your word for it.

Here are some answers:
A.) Kabbolas HaMalchus (accepting the King) is essential for Moshiach to be "coronated" so to speak. But we aren't mekabel the concept of malchus (though that alone is difficult enough for most Americans to understand). We have to be mekabel a specific king.
B.) It makes the desire for Moshiach stronger if you have identified Moshiach, and specifically want to be lead to geula by him.

Quote:
3. i heard some people say the Rebbe called the Freideker Rebbe Moshiach what does that mean and if he did how is it possible for the Rebbe to be Moshiach
This is a longer discussion. The basic idea is that the Rebbe was the FRs M'male makom (he filled his place). If you look at all of the transcripts of sichos, maamorim or otherwise, you will not see a single reference to the "Frierdicker Rebbe" or the previous Rebbe. The reason is simple: The Rebbe always referred to himself as a Chosid of the FR (by continually calling him simply "The Rebbe"). Statements that the Rebbe made about the FR, and ergo about the nasius in general, can be applied back to the Rebbe (if there is good indication that this is true, and context does not make it impossible. Obviously, if the Rebbe had said that the FR "lived in Warsaw from some time to some time," that statement can only be applied to the FR. But a statement regarding the concept of a Nossi can be applied throughout. In other words, the Rebbe wanted us to know that the FR, though he was nistalek, was still Moshiach. This was never really controversial. It does not take any mental gymnastics to apply that notion in the present situation.)

Quote:
4 why do some only learn the sichos dealing with Moshiach? (from the latter years they say it is the most relevant).
This would be similar to me asking you, Torah613 or anybody else on this forum who has expressed similar sentiments about moshiach, or mishichistim: Why don't you do what the Rebbe wants? or Why do you want us to live in golus? The question already supposes a handful of answers. The fact is that I have never met anybody who learns only sichos dealing with Moshiach. I have met people with a particular koch in those sichos. But I have never met anyone who learns them and no other sichos.

I want to turn the question around: Why are there those in the "anti" camp who never learn the later sichos? Why is it that when some people talk with not-yet-frum Yidden, they downplay the concept of Moshiach?

When the Rebbe said that mivtzoim have to be done b'ofen hamiskabel, he never said that you could dismiss one of the mevtzos completely. He never said, for example, that since Moshiach is an uncomfortable topic for some people that it can be forgotten altogether. Quite the opposite. In the later years, the Rebbe made Moshiach the central focus of his discussions, and told Chassidim that they too must make it a priority.

So why then do some of the "mainstream" camps in Lubavitch downplay Moshiach altogether (or leave Moshiach out completely)? Is it because they are worried about warding off potential contributors?

I think someone should answer that, rather than some question that incorrectly presumes that there are those among us who dismiss the earlier sichos, and maamorim.

Quote:
the individual who on this thread who believes the Rebbe is Moshiach ....nu is the whole focus to prove it to everyone or what is the avodah for you to do(i am not trying to be rude i am truly curiuos) it seems so much energy goes into proving the Rebbe is Moshiach, is that the directive the Rebbe gave?
You might be referring to someone specific here. I think I know who. As it is, you can't mean me. I don't think I've posted on this thread. I also have not tried to prove that the Rebbe is moshiach. But when I talk with people about Yiddishkeit, I refer to the concept of Moshiach frequently, because it is essential.

As for asserting that the Rebbe is Moshiach: I agree with you that this has to be done in an appropriate manner (b'ofen hamiskabel). (In general, we tend to measure this by what we do: Someone who does more than me is a nutcase. Someone who does less is lazy. So I could say I agree that there are some who go too far, but so what?) But I do not agree that it should not be done at all. Much energy should be put towards bringing Moshiach. (More than, perhaps, should be put towards complaining on CT about other people's avoda.)

The Rebbe told is to koch in Moshiach, and to talk and teach about Moshiach to others. That is what we're doing. If an "anti" wants to teach about Moshiach, let him. Aderabo, that would be a change for the better. But there is no directive from the Rebbe that says you can put off a conversation about Moshiach indefinitely so that a donor won't think you're an extremist. Each mevtzo has to be done b'ofen hamiskabel. But each mevtzo has to be done!! Mevtzo Moshiach all the more so.
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Unread 01-03-2006, 12:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul
B'klal lubavitch argue ....
B'chlal
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Unread 01-03-2006, 02:56 PM   #50
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first thank you frumkite for pointing out the spelling mistake
and meshulam thank you for your comments, i will make it a point to never ask anyone whether mishichist or non.
btw
i don't live in america
i live in a chareidi community that has lots of non lub i personally don't like when frum individuals bash others
if my tone made you think i was hostile i didn't mean to, i truly wanted to know.
pesonally i am a tiniest bit tired of everyone biting off heads because i asked questions that i truly don't know the answer to
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