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Unread 01-15-2004, 02:17 AM   #76
hishtatchus
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"Open your eyes" and "polish the buttons" bear some similarities. 1) They are not meant in the literal sense (although the outcome is, as the Rebbe specifically says, bepashtus) and 2) They are both to be carried out at the time they are said, not in a nebulous time in the future.

Logically, pretty much everyone had their eyes open at the time of the Farbrengen, which would rule out the possibility of the Rebbe intending that everyone's facial muscles get some exercise. By the same token, the time to open our eyes is now, when Moshiach is otherwise not obvious.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 10:12 AM   #77
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i also thought it's not literal but it means that it's (geula and Moshiach already here) so obviouse that you can see it with eynaim gashmiim, and as much little efforts needed as just "open your eyes"
The sicha mentions that the Geulah should be begashmius- and my point is that because we are still in golus - and when Moshiach will come the will be nothing to do but just SEE it.

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30

But ppl in this thread are saying that this so called "opening of the eyes" is needed or is a condition for the Geulah to be revealed (not the other way around).

Both of the above are not literal opening of the eyes but just an expression- but we understand it differently.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 10:19 AM   #78
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also in the same sicha about Geulah beruchnius^

First there is Geualah beruchnius then eynaim ruchniim can see it

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30

It looks like that the same order is in Geulah begashmius- first comes Geulah and then you see it beeyenaim gashmiim and that's what the sicha says it SHOULD be.

But where do ppl get the idea that the coming of the Geulah depends on our "opening of the eyes" ????
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Unread 01-15-2004, 11:56 AM   #79
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Quote:
Logically, pretty much everyone had their eyes open at the time of the Farbrengen,
very Adolescent view.....is that how old you were then ?
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Unread 01-15-2004, 12:31 PM   #80
hishtatchus
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Quote:
Roza speaks:
Jude claims that Moshiach came already and Geulah is here already but our eyes are closed.
But now you say
Quote:
but it means that it's (geula and Moshiach already here) so obvious that you can see it with eynaim gashmiim
So do you believe that Moshiach is here or not?

Quote:
But ppl in this thread are saying that this so called "opening of the eyes" is needed or is a condition for the Geulah to be revealed (not the other way around)
If opening your eyes allows you to see that Moshiach is here bepashtus, then opening your eyes "reveals" Moshiach.

Incidentally, though, this is a different issue entirely than the one you had before.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 01:47 PM   #81
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Quote:
First there is Geualah beruchnius then eynaim ruchniim can see it
there are no footnotes on that paragraph....

yet as I think someone posted here before...its very Breslov...Reb Nosson says that can occur followed by not accomplishing it b'gashmiyus....
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:14 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
I (in my ignorance) don't know which sicha you are referring to, but the Rebbe himself entertains such a pshat in "Achakeh Lo", and does not dismiss it out of hand (definitely not on hashkofo grounds), as discussed here recently (I forget exaxtly which thread).
Not true!
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gevurah
its very Breslov...Reb Nosson says that can occur followed by not accomplishing it b'gashmiyus....
Can you/would you cite a reference for us? We believe you, of course, but some like to look inside.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:21 PM   #84
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"Open your eyes" = VERY Simple meaning

Quote:
Originally posted by hishtatchus
"Open your eyes" and "polish the buttons" bear some similarities. 1) They are not meant in the literal sense (although the outcome is, as the Rebbe specifically says, bepashtus) and 2) They are both to be carried out at the time they are said, not in a nebulous time in the future.

Logically, pretty much everyone had their eyes open at the time of the Farbrengen, which would rule out the possibility of the Rebbe intending that everyone's facial muscles get some exercise. By the same token, the time to open our eyes is now, when Moshiach is otherwise not obvious.
Rather than all these long and complicated pilpulim:

"Open your eyes", means something EXTREMELY simple :

It simply means that: all that is required is a WILLINGNESS TO NOTICE (that it is so, without being Biased).
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:26 PM   #85
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Quote:
Can you/would you cite a reference for us? We believe you, of course, but some like to look inside.
unless it was deleted it is here on Chabadtalk
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:34 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torah613
I (in my ignorance) don't know which sicha you are referring to, but the Rebbe himself entertains such a pshat in "Achakeh Lo", and does not dismiss it out of hand (definitely not on hashkofo grounds), as discussed here recently (I forget exaxtly which thread).
I asked in the Igros, and opened volume 2 page 233 - and you are right.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:35 PM   #87
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What DID I see?

Quote:
Originally posted by roza
Look even for events that are so obvious- the ones that were discribed in this thread ppl need to open their eyes- but here no matter how hard you try- you won't see.

OK let me ask you- i am sure you DID opened your eyes -can you please discribe me WHAT do you see ( the way it was done in earlier posts) in all the details- make an article about it. But please don't describe the signs- but the real events of Geulah- describe me how Moshiach looks, what he is doing , where did he go and ect.

What I had "seen" (i.e. simply noticed otherwise known in Yiddish as "DERHERT"): exactly THAT, which the Rebbe said we SHOULD notice (which he detailed in the Sicha).

More importantly however:
Rather than focus on what "I" had actually, successfully "seen" vs perhaps what someone else had seen - that is a personal matter, in my the personal and particular level of my personal Avoda, (of what I did properly as the Rebbe wanted me to or what I had not quite done, well enough yet).

What is much more important:
Is not what I had actually seen but what the REBBE said that I SHOULD see (if only I did what the Rebbe WANTED me to do).
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Unread 01-15-2004, 03:35 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYankel


Not true!
see above. Unless you got a different answer in the igros.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:02 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl


I asked in the Igros, and opened volume 2 page 233 - and you are right.
No, he is definitely NOT right. The Rebbe was totally SHOLEL such a Pshat at the Farbrengen.

Regarding your Igros:

The "MOST" you can possibly conclude from this Igros is ONLY that POSSIBLY it is not "Mufrach" to say that Moshiach will come within a few hours or a Maximum of 1 or 2 or 3 days - and even this, only, in the event, that today is Shabbos or Yom Tov and so there could be a HAVA AMINA to say that Moshiach will come within a few HOURS, right after Havdala.

But there is no way on earth, anyone, in their RIGHT MIND can possibly, in their WILDEST DREAM, ever, even think of such a HAVA AMINA that "Sheyovo" means "eventually in a thousand years or even in a few years if it less than a thousand - as the famous "- - - -" from Bney Brak wanted to say)

In fact to entertain even such a possibility of such a "Pshat" is not only

1) Outright Ludicrous.

2) Not at all THE Pshat of what it means, (even a Child can understand that).

But much more than that:

Such interpretation is 100% the OPPOSITE of the whole entire idea of what Achkae loy is all about and it "borders" (Beloshon NEKIYA) on outright Apikurses, as the Rambam says that anyone who is not MECHAKE LEBIOSO is a Kofer according to the Rambam.

Last edited by RebYankel; 01-15-2004 at 04:16 PM.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:13 PM   #90
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Photo of the page in the Igros

Igros Kodesh Chelek 2 Pgae 233
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:16 PM   #91
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Achakeh Lo means I am awaiting his coming any day. That means it Is POSSIBLE that he can come today, and I WANT him to come Today (or in a day or two). But It is also possible that he will come later. Otherwise, when this was said 100 years ago it was a LIE. And Torah is Truth.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:22 PM   #92
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That is only bedieved.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:27 PM   #93
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Quote:
Hisht quotes:
Quote:
Roza speaks:
Jude claims that Moshiach came already and Geulah is here already but our eyes are closed.

But now you say
quote:
but it means that it's (geula and Moshiach already here) so obvious that you can see it with eynaim gashmiim

So do you believe that Moshiach is here or not?
====================

i don't claim that geulah came already and in fact as i am writing this post it's not here .

i was explaining the meaning of eye opening and again geulah has to come first. And yes it can happen with Moshiach coming any day (bkol yom) and i want it to be now. but until then my eye opening shows nothing and means nothing (except for seeing the state of the world- it's readiness for Moshiach's coming)

The reason i went into this thread - Jude moved my post here and i did know that- and she put this face -as if i wrote something heretical

see her attack at the end of this post: http://chabadtalk.com/forum/showthre...0643#post60643

Quote:
If you're not seeing the Geula, it's because you are not opening your eyes! This is the "limud" the Rebbe teaches in this sicha. And you say all you can do is WAIT?!
And I don't think that this is what the sicha is about. i think that the sicha is about what it SHOULD BE- THAT THE GEULAH SHOULD BE HERE BEGASHMIUS.

Last edited by roza; 01-15-2004 at 04:35 PM.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:28 PM   #94
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Achake Loy is not a "Nevuah"

Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
Achakeh Lo means I am awaiting his coming any day. That means it Is POSSIBLE that he can come today, and I WANT him to come Today (or in a day or two). But It is also possible that he will come later. Otherwise, when this was said 100 years ago it was a LIE. And Torah is Truth.
When we say that someone need to be:

"Achakae Loy Bechol Yom Sheyovo"

Or when someone "says that" as it is the Minhag of many to say it every day, what they are saying is not a Prediction nor a statement of fact that Moshiach will definitely actually come today etc.

The word Achake means Simply, that you are WAITING.

For example:

Suppose that you were waiting, expecting and looking forward very eagerly for me to come over to your house today.

You are 100 truthful in saying that you are eagerly WAITING for me

Now, if for any reason, I don't show up today, you had not said a Lie, because you truthfully waited for me, only for whatever reason I didn't fulfill your wish and expectation YET (on this day).

Last edited by RebYankel; 01-19-2004 at 10:37 PM.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:51 PM   #95
hishtatchus
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Roza, so then what precisely did you mean by this?
Quote:
but it means that it's (geula and Moshiach already here) so obvious that you can see it with eynaim gashmiim
Incidentally, the smiley you seem so insulted by is defined as "confused."

And I must respectfully disagree with you on your interpretation of the Sicha. The Rebbe is not saying a Tefilla here.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 04:51 PM   #96
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Re: What DID I see?

Quote:
Originally posted by RebYankel
[b]


What I had "seen" (i.e. simply noticed otherwise known in Yiddish as "DERHERT"): exactly THAT, which the Rebbe said we SHOULD notice (which he detailed in the Sicha).
Did you see what the Rebbe discribes in the end of the sichah:

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30

namely- yiden going to Eretz Israel and Beis Hamikdash Hashlishi on Har Habayis and Tehias hameisim of selected tadikim ???

We will notice it when it will happen- not the other way around.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 05:00 PM   #97
roza
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Quote:
Originally posted by hishtatchus
Roza, so then what precisely did you mean by this?

Quote:
quote:
but it means that it's (geula and Moshiach already here) so obvious that you can see it with eynaim gashmiim
My answer: I meant that this is the way it WILL be (the Rebbe was talking about it as if it happening now). Obviously - it's not THAT way NOW


Incidentally, the smiley you seem so insulted by is defined as "confused."

OK, I am sorry ...

And I must respectfully disagree with you on your interpretation of the Sicha. The Rebbe is not saying a Tefilla here.


Proof it- that the Rebbe is not saying Tefila or describing future events as if it's happening now
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Unread 01-15-2004, 05:15 PM   #98
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and again i want to repeat my question:

Quote:
But where do ppl get the idea that the coming of the Geulah depends on our "opening of the eyes" ????
The Rebbe said precisely what will bring the Geulah at the end of the sicha:

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30

see from yehi ratzon...

TORAH U'MITZVOIS
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Unread 01-15-2004, 06:03 PM   #99
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Everythin Helps but what is the IKER Avodas Hashlichus?

Quote:
Originally posted by roza
and again i want to repeat my question:



The Rebbe said precisely what will bring the Geulah at the end of the sicha:

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30

see from yehi ratzon...

TORAH U'MITZVOIS
Everything positive that anyone can ever do will help bring Moshiach faster. There is not one thing in Torah and Mitzvos that can be "excluded" to say that this doesn't matter or that this will not help or that this can't make the difference.

On the contrary, LEOLOM Yireh Odom Atzmoy Shokul etc.

If it is Pesach, the Rebbe can stress that the Inyonim of Pesach will be Memaher the Geulah and when it's Purim it's the Inyonim of Purim and the same for Chanukah and Yud Shvat.

That is different than talking about the Focus of the Primary (Iker) Avodah at this time or the ORDER which clearly defined the IKER Avodahs Hashlichus at THIS time for Shluchim an for all Chassidim etc.
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Unread 01-15-2004, 07:26 PM   #100
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RebYankel - you are expert in confusing the issue [BTW, can you reveal the secret to us, when is the first letter of a word capitalized, when is the whole word capitalized, when is a word (or sentence) written in italics, when in bold and when in red? Al pi kabala, perhaps - but it definitely doesnt bring out the point better...].
This is what you wrote originally
Quote:
(That was when he was referring to someone who had "a very strait head", and with his great wisdom he understood that when we say "Achakeh Loy Bechol Yom Sheyovo", it doesn't mean "NOW", but rather the "Sheyovo" means "WHENEVER" Moshiach will EVENTUALY come!)
To this I responded with a reference to Igros (which Rebayzl helpfully dug up for us), where such an understanding is entertained.
Then we get this gem
Quote:
Originally posted by RebYankel


No, he is definitely NOT right. The Rebbe was totally SHOLEL such a Pshat at the Farbrengen.

Regarding your Igros:

The "MOST" you can possibly conclude from this Igros is ONLY that POSSIBLY it is not "Mufrach" to say that Moshiach will come within a few hours or a Maximum of 1 or 2 or 3 days - and even this, only, in the event, that today is Shabbos or Yom Tov and so there could be a HAVA AMINA to say that Moshiach will come within a few HOURS, right after Havdala.

But there is no way on earth, anyone, in their RIGHT MIND can possibly, in their WILDEST DREAM, ever, even think of such a HAVA AMINA that "Sheyovo" means "eventually in a thousand years or even in a few years if it less than a thousand - as the famous "- - - -" from Bney Brak wanted to say)

In fact to entertain even such a possibility of such a "Pshat" is not only

1) Outright Ludicrous.

2) Not at all THE Pshat of what it means, (even a Child can understand that).

But much more than that:

Such interpretation is 100% the OPPOSITE of the whole entire idea of what Achkae loy is all about and it "borders" (Beloshon NEKIYA) on outright Apikurses, as the Rambam says that anyone who is not MECHAKE LEBIOSO is a Kofer according to the Rambam.
Then we get the lomdus of lechatchila and bedieved by another lamdan (whatever that is supposed to mean in this context).
Oh well.
But I suppose it is all worth it, to be accused of "outright Apikurses" by RebYankel...

Last edited by Torah613; 01-15-2004 at 07:35 PM.
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