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Unread 12-23-2003, 01:08 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Question Free Will In The Messianic Era

When Moshiach comes, especially in the Redemption's second stage, after the resurrection, "the spirit of impurity will vanish from the world," and the evil inclination will be slain.

If the purpose of evil is to enable man to have free will, which is needed to observe Torah and Mitzvos, then the vanquishing of evil and slaughter of the evil inclination seem to imply that man will lose free will.

But isn't the concept of free will fundamental to Judaism? How could it be abolished ch"v?

And without it, of what value are the Mitzvos performed? Aren't the Mitzvos eternal?

What about the story in the Gemara that the angels wanted to receive the Torah, and Moshe responded: do you have a evil inclination to sin?

(Btw, I guess the same question exists about the avoda of Tzadikim, who according to Tanya kadisha possess no evil inclination.)
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Unread 12-23-2003, 04:39 PM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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I have learned it that presently bechira is between good and bad.
L'asid lavo, the bechira will be between good and better.
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Unread 12-23-2003, 06:42 PM   #3
noahidelaws
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1. Please provide a source.

2. This requires further explanation. Nowadays, I understand. The yetzer tov pulls the person one way, and the yetzer hara, the other way, and the person must choose which of the two will dominate (see start of ch. 10 of Tanya).

But what will be the two parts of the person le'asid lavo that will pull him in different directions--one to "good," and the other to "bettter"?
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Unread 12-23-2003, 09:12 PM   #4
Yankel Nosson
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1. Rabbi Shusterman in N. Beverly Hills, for one.
2. Today you choose between learning Tanya and playing basketball. L'asid lavo you will choose between learning Tanya and learning Likutei Torah.
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Unread 12-23-2003, 10:00 PM   #5
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1. That's nice, but what's HIS source?

2a. Are you implying that Tanya is "better" than Likutei Torah, or vice versa?! Based on what?

2b. You still have not answered how an internal struggle is possible, if only the Divine Soul exists.

3. What about the fact that the Mitzvos, especially the Negative Commandments, appear to assume the existence of the evil inclination?
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Unread 12-24-2003, 03:09 AM   #6
Yankel Nosson
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I'm beginning to think that you like argument for argument's sake.
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Unread 12-28-2003, 07:16 AM   #7
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I think that my points were valid and pertinent, and I don't understand why you respond as you do.
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Unread 12-28-2003, 04:52 PM   #8
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by noahidelaws
2b. You still have not answered how an internal struggle is possible, if only the Divine Soul exists.

3. What about the fact that the Mitzvos, especially the Negative Commandments, appear to assume the existence of the evil inclination?
2b. I don't think that my statements implied an internal struggle as you seem to infer. One level of free will is "should I spend my $5 on candy, or give it to tzedaka;" Another level of free will is "surely I would never spend $5 on candy, but should I give it the widow or the orphan?" I do not want ot claim that this completely answers the question, because after all we are unfamiliar with the state of affairs without the yetzer. But this mashal should at least point in the right direction.

3. This is how it is explained that the Torah can say that, on the one hand, the mitzvos will no longer apply (Niddah 61b), and on the other hand, the Torah is nitzchis? B'kitzur, there are plenty of mitzvos that are dependent on circumstance, and if the circumstance does not obtain then one has no need to do the mitzvah (for example, if you don't have a home you have no mitzvah of mezuzah). (For a fuller answer, see http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...e-again/12.htm)
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Unread 12-28-2003, 08:10 PM   #9
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great q.

there must be the option of doing mitzvos, because one of the proofs that the rambam brings in hilchos melachim is from arei miklat. this shows that mitzvos will still be done in yemos hamoshiach. on the other hand the gemarah in succa 52b states that hashem will slaughter the yetzer hara.

the answer is that there will still be evil in the world, the ruach hatumah will only be removed in the 2nd stage. thus we will be able to choose between good and bad. just like today even someone who has the most powerful nisyonos is still expected to overcome them - it is still considere bechira. (and he has hashem's help to overcome the yetzer hara), so too we can imagine an opposite scenario that's it very hard to do something bad, yet it is still possible (like tzaddikim today?).

and yes, LEFUM TZARA AGRA. i would imagine that one would get less schar for doing a mitzvah then, since it will be so much easier.

mm reitzes has a full discussion about this in his book hinei yamim ba'im volume 1. parshas nitzavim. his sources at the end are igros kodesh volume 2 page 68; volume 17 page 357; melukat vol. 2 327.
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Unread 12-29-2003, 02:14 PM   #10
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"L'asid lavo...thiyeh ha'avodah rak baliyos michayil el choyil b'tov atzmo u'vkedusha davka." (Sefer Hamaamarim Melukat, vol 2, p. 223)
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Unread 07-31-2007, 12:43 PM   #11
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le'osid lavoi is yomim asher ein li bohem cheifetz.
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Unread 08-04-2008, 07:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
If the purpose of evil is to enable man to have free will
Perhaps its the other way around: The purpose of Free Will is to enable man to choose between Good and Evil at a fine-grain level, in order to gradually climb to high levels of G-dliness [Melukat 3, p. 163]

The definition of "vanquishing of evil" (Leha'avir Ruach Hatum'a Min Ha'aretz) does not mean "to annihilate the Evil by removing it and making it die or dissappear", but rather LeHa'Avir, by converting the Evil to good - and even this 'conversion' will be accomplished not by destroying or dealing with the Evil itself, but by revealing the highest upper innermost Shoresh and "Atzmus" of everything, including the Shoresh and Atzmus of Evil, which of course is good, is all Elokus, and always was Elokus.

This is accomplished by doing the avoida of Iskafya and Ishapcha, to not push away the darkness, but rather, to make the darkness itself light.

As a rule, you don't "push away darkness" per se, you just kindle a light, and memeila, the darkness gets pushed away. A little bit of light, pushes away a lot of darkness

My opinion is, since there will still be Good and Evil (only Evil will be 'switched to good at its source') - there's no reason to say there won't be Free Will to choose between Good and Evil (or as someone else said above, choose between Good and Better) Yelchu Mechail El Chail.

Vehorayo that Evil will still exist, (only Evil will be converted, or 'revealed' as good at its source) - since the Torah is Nitzchi, will never change - and what do you suppose will happen to all these words written in the Torah "Ra", "Choshech", "Tum'a", "Rasha" etc... you cant suppose that the Torah will suddenly be missing these words when "LeHa'avir Ruach HaTum'a Min Ha'Aretz" happens, since Torah is Eternal... therefore the Rebbe explains, that Le'HaAvir... means, to reveal the source of Evil at its highest level, that it is and was always good to begin with, (like Par'oh the rosho, at its spiritual source, is actually a very high level of G-dliness, called: IsPeriu Minei Kol Nehoirin)...

More thorough discussion:
Free Will

Last edited by altergod; 08-05-2008 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Added link
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Unread 08-04-2008, 10:18 PM   #13
Joey
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Todays Hayom Yom!
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